Commercial firewood harvesting

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  • March 16, 2009 at 2:10 am #40325
    Robert MoonShadow
    Participant

    I searched but didn’t see this subject covered extensively, so…
    An open question to Jason, Carl & others; How would you go about it? Here’s the idea: after reading in the thread on log prices & loggers turning to selling firewood, I also know that I make a major financial contribution to my farming operation by selling about 60 – 70 cords a winter. The last two, my landlord & I use his mini-excavator & flatbed trailer to load & haul. I’m working towards full-time produce farming w/ donkeys (a team or 3). I thought it’d be enlightening to learn how you ‘elders’ (as in those with wisdom, which is applied knowledge) would go about harvesting the firewood. A discussion on which tools are a must, which are optional, and why. A scoot? Sled? Tongs? If you take the premise of a single (or team) of small mule/pony/donkey & deal with it from there; then if someone has a bigger horse or mule, it’d be easy to adapt – it’s hard to do so from the other direction. There’d be size, weight & length limitations to consider, of course, so… cut into stove length, short logs & finish at base camp or home, long logs when they’re light enough…? Several of us newbies have expressed interest in firewooding – Jen, myself, I believe NearHorse – and although I can’t, won’t & don’t want to speak for anyone other than myself, I think others would enjoy it & see it as an opportunity to learn. With firewood permits out here in the nat’l forests being $10/cord, after locating the wood (standing dead only), the draft animals are the best choice for extraction. Personally, I’ve got 10 – 15 cord of red fir I can drive to; another 45 – 60 if I can use my donkey, as the live timber’s too thick to get any further into. It’s a 1000 ft. drag – at the farthest end. Some of these logs are pretty big in diameter >>> as I mentioned, I often get 1 1/2 – 2 cords from 1 tree – even 3 or a bit more.
    Jason: I’m not asking you to give away the techniques, etc. that you teach in your program; just whatever bits & pieces of insight you’d feel comfortable in sharing. You, too, Carl. So how about it?
    {Um, unless, of course, it’s already been covered & I just couldn’t find it; in which case I’ll feel like an idiot}

    March 17, 2009 at 3:06 am #50909
    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    Fuelwood is a little different in your area than in mine, but I think it is going to be consistent. I plan on keeping a wood pile going year-round on this farm to sell split to those who want to come pick it up.

    I will be back to post more substance later, Carl

    March 17, 2009 at 10:23 am #50931
    jen judkins
    Participant

    @Carl Russell 7131 wrote:

    I will be back to post more substance later, Carl

    And perhaps you have thought more about your chainsaw safety and logging course:p?

    March 17, 2009 at 11:37 am #50902
    Gabe Ayers
    Keymaster

    Pirate Farmer and others,

    Firewood has always just been a by product of saw log production for us. In the context of restorative forestry, based upon worst first single tree selection we often have landowners that are quite concerned by the aesthetic appearance of their woodlots, so they don’t like all that slash, debris or tops of the trees left in the woods.

    This presents somewhat of a conflict as a naturalist, ecologist. The greatest nutrient value in a trees body are in the parts that are four inches of less inside the bark, meaning most of the material some see as a “mess” in the woods. We see it as soil building, wildlife habitat, deer browse protection and generally stuff that isn’t worth the skilled labor of removing, so we prefer to leave it where it falls and explain all this to the land owner. We often lop and scatter or cut the stuff into smaller pieces so it will lay closer to the ground and degrade faster. It often provides the food for the fruit of decay or edible gourmet mushrooms…which are worth far more than the wood for much less work to extract….

    Of course there is the conflict between the pulpwood market and the firewood market. Most of this will go into pulpwood that can be sold commercially in longer lengths than firewood with less chainsaw work, but firewood when worked up and split is worth much more. It is a matter of where and how you want to invest your skilled labor. Given current markets, we all may not have much choice of how to turn our physical efforts into cash….

    So now that I have said all that and said much about firewood, here is how it usually works for us. When a piece of debris presents itself as convenient to pull out with the saw logs we take it out and start us a firewood pile. We sometimes have the options of selling this material long length and hauling it to the customer and dumping it near their woodshed and charging less that if we worked it up. Then we have a few customers that know we are in the “wood business” and ask us for firewood, which to them means bucked to lengths for their stove, split and somewhat dry. We always keep much of that commodity around either back at our place or on a landing somewhere.

    The primary issue historically is that .95 cents of every firewood dollar is labor. So it becomes a choice of where you want to invest your skilled labor.
    I say historically because that may not be the case today as in the past. For instance the cost of the fuel wood hasn’t gone up in the past with the price of fuel oil, so we have not been to excited about selling it or at least no including in the prospect of harvesting it for the value. But the (sawlog and pulpwood) markets are quite feeble today and the ability to turn any raw material assessable from the natural resource base into cash particularly on a community based model, meaning don’t have to haul it far or can sell from the farm (like Carl), is providing another perspective economically.

    Remember this response is regionally specific and that it is a different situation in each different region and community. We are happy to have a little market here and there for our fire wood. We like having some of it that is two and three years old stacked around in the hedge row waiting for the customer to come along. Of course it also helps us to see the grand kids when their parents (my children) show up needing some firewood….

    I think the small size of much of this material makes using smaller draft animals very appropriate. As a matter of fact that is how I worked in the woods for the first time with my own animals. They were 600 pound pulling ponies and we worked with some local folks “cleaning up” after a timber harvest and pulled many truckloads out of a woodlot to a yard that served as the processing site for the different lengths firewood. It was very rewarding to have some useful work to do with animals that were pretty much a hobby at the time. Far less boring than driving in a circle on a sled and I did get paid something…

    Firewood is something that also gains value with time alone. Meaning that the longer it lays around and drys the more valuable it actually is, because it makes better fuel that creates less creosote and burns with a lower draft in the stove and therefore gives off or keeps more heat in the home… “Seasoned”
    So putting some aside may not be immediately returning income, but a good investment into your own time, team and future marketable products. Wood drys and if kept off the ground will not rehydrate as fast as it lost moisture.
    There is a limit to this though and some species of hardwood won’t last so well outside, so about three years is the best, depending on how small one splits it. The general rule is that it takes about a year an inch to get wood down to about 14% moisture, which is nice burning wood…. lights off easy and stays in the stove longer and puts off more heat because you don’t have to have the flue wide open to get it to burn…and thereby letting all the heat up the chimney.

    We are fortunate to have such a diverse forested resource in central Appalachia with so many species of trees for so many uses. But each area has it’s own valuable material and can be worked so sensitively with animals.

    Just don’t put your wood stack under an eve of a building or in a confluence on the ground. It tends to be allot harder to dry in those places….and yes I have seen lots folks do this, particularly new people to the country. These are the same folks that build their fences with the wire or boards on the roadside not the livestock side of the post…. Looks nice, but doesn’t work as well.

    We have had markets for long length to people that have firewood processors, but the recent market chances in fossil fuel cost have flooded those markets with what was previously hardwood pulp at about $21.00 per ton delivered.

    Hope this helps, thanks for asking. I would still use an arch if I could, be careful – plan it all out before you start, have everything ready to go before harnessing your work animals and rest your animals when they are doing everything just right.

    Also take a chainsaw safety and skill course and use personal protective gear always….

    Good luck on being a “woodchuck”, if you are going to be one – be a sustainable woodchuck….

    March 17, 2009 at 2:56 pm #50910
    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    Echoing all that Jason just posted, I will add that the conventional “market” for fuelwood is based on production, economy of scale, to make commercial harvesting more cost effective. Fuelwood has been usurped as a component of “timber” harvest, as a way to increase harvest volumes to give more incentive to enterprises that are based on large capital investments. It is very difficult to “compete” in this market because the prices are kept down by processors that develop monopolies over supply.

    There is no doubt that wood has value for heat, and that people need/want to get wood to heat their homes, and that removal of some low grade material can benefit the growth of trees with high potential to produce quality sawtimber, and that draft animals can be effective and low cost, BUT crafting your production system so that your product that doesn’t pull you down by having to dump it just to get cash, and that you are working at something that advances your relationship with your animals, community, and landscape does take some thought, which usually, at least in my case, comes from experience.

    I usually do not harvest low grade material in large quantities. I like to grow a forest in a highly stocked condition, reducing competition only on crop trees, so that can be done non-commercially and through “surgical” commercial harvest. For me to seriously consider harvesting wood, it has to be 4-6″ minimum top end, 24′ minimum length, sound, and easily processable.

    One of the dirty little (actually it’s really big) secrets of modern timber harvest is that the harvest of good quality sawtimber actually carries the operational cost of low-grade harvest. In other words the large producers can’t harvest pulp and fuelwood at a profit either, so foresters will increase overall volume, and will “sweeten the deal” by including in the harvest sawtimber trees that have much more potential if they were left to grow, both of which add to the cost of the degradation of the forest ecosystem.

    With that in mind, I rarely pay anything for fuelwood stumpage, and if for some reason there is some volume that needs to be harvested, ie. regeneration patch cut, or significant TSI, then I actually charge for my harvest, because I choose to leave the trees that would otherwise pay for a commercial cut, and my fuelwood removal is in fact an investment in the improved growth and return in quality in the future stand.

    Now, I have a forestry degree from an accredited school, have 25+ years of experience, and a family farm where I can apply my trade and philosophy, so I am somewhat isolated from the pressure on most people who are trying to make their living in the woods. However, I suggest that others do not have to work for nothing doing work in a way that provides little or no advancement of skill or social responsibility.

    As far as the methodology, I have mostly pretty big animals that I use which gives me some good access to a variety of sites. Using small animals will have to mimic your hand-powered operation. You may find that a small wagon, sled, or cart that can haul cut blocks from the stump will work good. If you get to skidding logs, you will need to reduce the distance, which may be best accomplished by your choice of harvest sites. There may be a way to incorporate your trail building enterprise in the off-season to create harvesting access.

    I know as well as anybody that a little money is better than none, but remember that this can become a significant part of a diversified livelihood, so don’t start off by selling yourself short. Present yourself as a professional, with a service and a valuable product, both in the woods, and on the landing.

    Carl

    p.s. Only vague images of a potential summer horse logging/ forest management workshop series. It may be a bit more focused after I get some of this paper work of my desk.

    March 17, 2009 at 4:22 pm #50940
    Robert MoonShadow
    Participant

    Carl, Jason ~ Thank you for your thoughts. A couple of points; out West here, the wood is primarily ‘soft’ woods >>> firs, pines, etc. No one burns much of the little bit of hardwood that’s around. There’s entire forests dead or dying from beetle-infestation, and after the devastating ‘let it burn’ policies of recent years, the national & state forests, as well as some of the bigger timber companies, are starting to push firewood harvesting as a way around the ‘logging ban lawsuits’. There’s a caveat, however; no logging-type set up {as in skidders, etc}, and low-impact is demanded (rightly so) by the timber companies. I harvest a lot of firewood… often getting several cords from what the ‘wood-hackers’ leave behind: they come in, drop only the big standing dead, cut out the ‘bellies’ & go >>> leaving 1/2 to a full cord in the bottom swell & top. It’s (as Carl called it) the methodology of taking that, as well as some pretty good sized stuff that’s too far off the road to interest the hackers, using draft animals that would open up an entire range of possibilities. Because, although the Nat’l Forests are open to anyone w/ a chainsaw & firewood permit, the timber companies {that own tracts larger than some Eastern states} have shown some willingness to give exclusive permission to those that can show that they can do it without damaging the valuable timber –> the typical 2-ton truck w/ winch, 4-wheeler ‘chain her up & hit the gas’, ‘grab the gravy – leave the rest’ techniques used by what is known hereabouts as ‘wood-hackers’ won’t cut it. The state lands have shown similar interests. Firewood takes up 1/4 of my time & brings in about 1/2 my money… more so, if I can grasp the ideas & methods of utilizing the donkeys – as Carl indicated, labor is a major cost – but so is fuel – and draft power seems to me to be able to address both issues. I’m wondering if it would help loggers back East that are dealing w/ low prices, as well? It seems to me that instead of a sideline, it can become a major focus: sustainable firewood harvesting. Because from what I’ve seen out here, all the regulations & common sense in place for the logging operations go out the window when it comes to fiirewood. But I realize that there’s a big difference between a donkey snigging an occasional firelog & full-blown production. I just mentioned donkeys, because I use them, and because it’s easier to translate up than down… for instance, I think a logging arch for donkeys would have to be scaled way down? Perhaps some sort of long, narrow cart or wagon for stove-lengths or 4-footers? Maybe I’m wasting time on this idea?

    March 17, 2009 at 4:55 pm #50934
    near horse
    Participant

    Well, I thought I submitted to this thread a few minutes ago but writngs must have gone into the vapor:(

    BUT – Robert covered a lot of what I was going to mention. The difference in both land ownership and firewood species here in the west. I didn’t know

    the typical 2-ton truck w/ winch, 4-wheeler ‘chain her up & hit the gas’

    Robert – how do you get your wood to the truck to haul it? We used to skid w/ our old 4wd pickup and a cable choker and cut into rounds on the forest service road – never left anything behind. Limbed where it fell. One of my neighbors was afraid of tearing up his ground by moving the log at all so he cut rounds and carried them to his pickup (he ended up having to roll them because they were 2′ dbh red fir – green:eek:)

    I think a logging arch for donkeys would have to be scaled way down? Perhaps some sort of long, narrow cart or wagon for stove-lengths or 4-footers? Maybe I’m wasting time on this idea?

    Don’t under sell what a donkey is capable of. If they were that incapable,much of the 3rd world would have dumped them a long time ago. Those little buggers haul some serious loads in Africa (sometimes it’s probably too much) but a team on an arch should be able to handle some logs. What diameters of tmber are you looking at?

    the timber companies {that own tracts larger than some Eastern states} have shown some willingness to give exclusive permission to those that can show that they can do it without damaging the valuable timber

    Who did you talk to about this? I’d like to know more.

    March 17, 2009 at 8:43 pm #50920
    Rick Alger
    Participant

    Well I brought the topic up, so I guess I’ll jump in.

    Here in the northeast, firewood is a last resort for seasoned loggers. The reasons are amply explained by Jason and Carl.

    In Idaho it might make more sense.

    However, it’s hard to imagine the donkeys pulling the kind of logs you’re talking about whether they have an arch or not. I’ve got an arch and a good light team that weighs around 2800, and I don’t expect them to pull much more than a fourth of a cord at a turn on a steady basis. My guess is the donkeys might do half of that.

    So if I was out there in Idaho with a pair of donkeys and a saw dealing with those large trees, I would probably cut and split the wood right where it fell, stack it on runners, and scoot out an eighth of a cord at a time, when I had a customer waiting and a truck at the ready.

    If I could cut, split, skid and sell 4 or 5 cords a week at $200 a cord I’d feel pretty good until the Bursitis kicked in.

    March 18, 2009 at 3:30 am #50941
    Robert MoonShadow
    Participant

    Rick; Oh, no, no! I meant that’s how much wood is in the trees and/or left behind by the woodhackers –> and these rounds cut at 16″ lengths, some we had to split onsite because the mini-excavator couldn’t lift them onto the flatbed trailer! Mostly, though the trees are smaller (here’s showing my lack of logging terminology)… my chainsaw bar’s a 24″, and that’s about right for most trees I’m dealing with. I have only the one donkey right now; I’m sure as I add another to make a team, it’ll be sweeter, but for now, that’s the parameter for me. Sales around here are “split & delivered”… and prices are 40% higher (plus delivery charge) in Lewiston, 70 miles away.
    Geoff; The large trucks I spoke of are what the typical hackers around here use, sometimes a 1-ton w/ a trailer. You saw my Datsun? I put 1/2 – 2/3 a cord of rounds on it & bring it out {no racks, yet}. This one patch I’ve got 30-40 cord in still, Bonner & I got the gravy stuff last year w/ the mini-excavator & flatbed equipment trailer… drove right up & were able to cut our way in. Now, it’s ‘rolling them rounds’ for me, this last season… and donkey-power is what I need, now – but am trying to figure out the methodology (I like that term Carl used). My friends up north by Emida (they’re in their 80s, used to rent that big spot from Potlatch, in Potlatch (company town = company name). Used to use a pair of horses for harvesting around there, ’til the one nutted up & committed suicide by rearing & falling over the 30′ bank (wasn’t a draft horse & no one knew why it did it). While I was in prison, he sounded them out for me, said they seemed still interested. Around here, Bennett Industries (the mill/land company in G’ville) has interest, if it’s done professionally (at least in substance, not neccesarily by a company). Oh, and in the past, when there’s any real distance to haul the rounds (40+ ft.) I’ve used an old toboggan & rope… and the only ass doing the hauling was, as you can guess; ME!! {Um, kinda how I got the idea for using the donkey} 😮 Actually, it’s what I had intended to use: one donk & a toboggan (modified), but this thread’s suggesting better ways/equipment. By myself, doing it as described, I can often get a cord a day out of the woods, in rounds.

    March 18, 2009 at 4:09 am #50942
    Robert MoonShadow
    Participant

    Rick, Carl (and other loggers) – The comments on loggers viewing firewood sales ‘as a last resort’ – and the info that many are ‘hanging up their gear & getting wage jobs’, are half of my motivation for this thread in the first place: maybe through this thread, some loggers will reconsider that view, and will decide not to hang up their saws & work at a gas station (or whatever) –> and continue their (and their animals’) presence in the woods, where we need them to be.
    And I truly believe that last statement: we desperately need thinking, caring men and women working in & with the forests. We need the same type of caring & thinking people on small farms, as well.
    Perhaps firewood – whether as a sideline or stand-alone business – can help some of us do that?

    March 18, 2009 at 4:30 am #50935
    near horse
    Participant

    Wow – dragging your own firewood! And rolling rounds. Robert -You’re one tough hombre. I’m still not clear on whether you’re dropping green cull trees or dead standing ones. Even dead ones have quite a bit of moisture left in them (especially at the base) if they’ve only been dead a year or less.

    Here in the northeast, firewood is a last resort for seasoned loggers. The reasons are amply explained by Jason and Carl.

    In Idaho it might make more sense.

    Rick – most loggers here can make way more money logging than cutting firewood, when there’s work to do. About 10+ years ago I know sawyers that were bringing in $60,000 for 9-10 mo work. They are on unemployment during the spring mud season and in the summer fire season they go on “hoot owl” which means they have to be out of the woods by 11AM. So guys start leaving for the jobsite at 2-3 AM. Some drive for 2 hours to get to the site while others are far out enough to just stay in camp all week. This isn’t your regular 9-5 type of job for sure.

    If I could cut, split, skid and sell 4 or 5 cords a week

    This might be splitting hairs but Rick, are you splitting wood out in the forest? Before you haul it to your trailer/truck? Just asking.

    The other issue I’ve run into, again on public land, is finding a good place to buck the tree into rounds to haul. Other than on the forest service road, everything is pretty steep with pretty heavy understory – not real safe for bucking.

    Whew – I’m feelin that bursitis already (or maybe its carpal tunnel from typing).

    March 18, 2009 at 12:29 pm #50921
    Rick Alger
    Participant

    Geoff,
    That scenario I created was a suggestion to Robert. To clarify, I would cut and split the wood where it fell, load it on a small scoot (sled) bring it roadside and load it directly on the truck. I assumed the wood was dead and standing, and I also assumed he’d be skidding up to 600 feet as he mentioned earlier. This model would be the way to minimize handling and produce a marginally adequate volume with light draft animals.

    I don’t do it this way. I skid log length and process roadside – sorting out logs and pulp – unless I can’t sell logs and pulp. (In NH you can’t sell any softwoods, poplar, or white/grey birch for firewood.)

    In my experience, firewood is not a money maker. But in tough times it’s better than nothing.

    March 18, 2009 at 3:14 pm #50911
    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    Just for conversation, if anyone is letting you take wood for free, it is because the removal has value to them, and they don’t want to have to pay you for the service. Be realistic about the cost/value of your time, and if you can’t get it out of the buyer, get it out of the landowner.

    Cutting and splitting, at least splitting by hand, on steep inaccessible slopes is probably less dangerous than trying to skid logs. I am working with some foresters in Ecuador to help them develop a way to use the small mules used by the villagers. They, like Robert, use a lot of rudimentary techniques, including hand winches, and human power. They also use a pack saddle, which reminded my of the post by Bivol about the Balkanian loggers moving wood on pack horses. Robert your experience with packing may be a really good solution here, giving you a way to use the donkey that you already have some skill with.

    You may want to review it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVfo3…eature=related

    I think Rick’s suggestion of the small sled is also a good idea.

    Carl

    March 18, 2009 at 4:22 pm #50943
    Robert MoonShadow
    Participant

    Geoff ~ I really ain’t so tough; it’s just got to be done. I’m not lazy – and I want my own farm, so I just do it. The wood I’m talking about on public lands is dead – must be, or you’ll get fined – if caught; it’s how the woodhackers get their name – and it’s been dead a while = I’ve dropped, cut, split and burn some all in the same day. It’s dry. I buck the stuff into rounds whereever it falls, and drag/push/roll/cuss it to the truck… that’s my point: I’d sooner have the donkey/small mule do the draggin’ & I’ll do the cutting, and we’ll both do the cussin’. :rolleyes:
    I split it at home, but have considered dragging the woodsplitter in. But it’s a time game: I’d sooner get as much wood out asap & back home, where I can use the woodsplitter at my convenience in warmer climate. Geoff; as you mentioned in your pm to me, ‘off-road’ travel by vehicle is verbotten, and if the ranger sees you tearing up the woods w/ your atv’s wheels, etc. while dragging logs, he’ll make you stop… so there’s lots of wood sitting 100-1000ft. off the roads. {You can tell just how long the competition’s winch cables are}. I don’t bother w/ the really steep slopes, unless there’s prime stuff on the uphill side. I wouldn’t trust my ability to keep my animal safe while snigging on a steep slope, at this level of my experience (basically none). I’ve thought of packing, but I can get too much within the aforementioned distances to bother w/ it. I don’t think it’s worth the payload for only a couple of hundred feet, although I might be mistaken… sure wish I could see youtube, but dialup doesn’t work for video (for me, anyways). I like the set-up on Carl’s scoot – looks very effective. Carl, how wide is it? I’m thinking of that, with shafts for single, (sized for large-standard donkey), on a moderate slope… perhaps 1/3 of a cord?

    March 18, 2009 at 8:00 pm #50932
    jen judkins
    Participant

    aww man, Robert…its a shame you can’t see Bivol’s video! It is my favorite! And Carl has a point about packing wood out on your ass…I mean donkey:eek:. Next time you are at the library, check it out! Promise me!

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