Load limits on younger horses

DAPNET Forums Archive › Forums › Draft Animal Power › Training Working Animals › Training Horses and/or Mules › Load limits on younger horses

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 15 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • March 16, 2009 at 6:23 pm #40331
    LStone
    Participant

    A couple of weeks ago I bought a “people mover” wagon, I have no idea of its weight but I would estimate it’s weight at just short of a ton on four rubber tires. I have hitched to it with my Belgain 2yo filly and 3yo gelding both around 1300#, and both turning a year older in April. They are familiar with a forecart and I noted that they have become aware of the weight difference and technique differences in pulling this wagon vs. the forecart. I have been getting them snapped in to pulling the wagon on shorter distances than they are used to taking me over the road. I have been reading with a lot of interest the “moving heavy loads with horses” thread and getting a bunch of information from it. Thank you for sharing.

    I have not been going hard with them at all and just dont want to hurt them. I suspect I am OK but want to be sure. Until yesterday we have been on basically flat grades. Yesterday we walked (pulled) “the loop” though. On it were some decent grades with some resting opportunities between them. When we crested hills I didn’t stop them but kept them walking. I didn’t think it would be a good idea to get them started on stopping at the crest of a hill just because. I did stop and rest them about 5 minutes after all the hill climing though. These hills weren’t mountains by any means and I was able to keep them walking and got after whoever was not pulling so the other wouldn’t shoulder it alone. They handled the whole trip fine the distance was approximately 5 miles and it was about 50 degrees.

    They were labored after the trip but not blowing hard at all, just wet. At the end we struggled to put the wagon away by backing it up through the mud on the flat. It was a struggle but when they caught on they both sat on the britchen and backed it where I aimed them. I was impresssed and had an awesome time doing it. They got all fired up and I discovered I have to work better on the woe command while backing. All in all a Banner Day in NH.

    I do have some questions regarding taking it easy on younger animals until there joints fuse etc. My questions are how do you tell if you are endangering there joints? Is it a question of load or repetition of loads that effect them negatively? I know they harden about 5 or 6 but at what point until then should I say enough? I don’t skid large saw logs with them yet but do the tires matter? If so I trust it is positive. Does anyone have any idea of what young horses limitations are with respect to load, duration, or repetitions vs. their maturing joints? I issued a calm “pull” command to a slacking off horse during the trip and if they started to trot I pulled them down to a “walk” command. I think they got it based upon what I saw from their performance on those up hill climbs. I’m pretty sure of the walk command, but is the pulling command used at all or is it still a “walk”? How do you prepare a horse for resistance or a requirement for exertion such as a log vs a cart. Or am I overthinking it and it knows how to determine the difference realtime?

    Based upon my visit with them early this morning they showed me to be no worse for wear as they trucked about 75 yards over Ice and snow to meet me at the pasture gate. I look forward to guidance from the group.

    Larry

    March 18, 2009 at 1:04 am #51007
    Gabe Ayers
    Keymaster

    Hey Larry,

    I think your post was bumped by other threads – as this is not a group that will ignore your request for comments. So maybe this will bring it back to the top for more discussion.

    First it seems you are somewhat inexperienced, but doing very well with these young horses.

    Horses are individuals and some mature sooner than others. Some gain size, height, girth, bone, joints and muscle quicker than others. American blonde Belgians get bigger quicker than Suffolks for instance. I have seen Suffolk horses that didn’t gain full size until 9 years old, while growing, while working steadily from about 4-5 years old. I have seen Belgian horses peek out at 5 years old. But there is allot of experience on this board and other may have more to contribute to your questions.

    If they were mine, I would be particularly careful about working them on a road of any kind. Hardtop or gravel roads are very unforgiving and the concussion of their feet/joints and limbs is what will hurt their unset joints. I know it is hard to not enjoy working a young willing pair. But I would keep their training steps on sod or ground – not the road.

    We have allot of folks down south that “wagon train” or take their horses for long rides through the countryside and camp out at various farms and locations along the route. Some really enjoy this and have allot of fun. But what I have also seen is that allot of young horses are driven many miles over the road and never get over it. That is where the caution about driving over the road comes from for me. These horses are pretty much hobbies for the owners and they buy them young, start them young and wear them out young. It is the joint issue and these horses never last into their twenties working hard after they mature. They become stiff and uncomfortable moving earlier than horses that are allowed to completely mature before working hard, which includes miles on the road.

    Hope this helps you. It is good to hear of young horses working well for someone. It is also wise of you to seek advice about their use. I don’t think you have hurt them with five miles on the road and you may not hurt them at all.

    Some of these wagon train folks would drive 10-15 miles a day, up hills, down hills – all over. It was good for the horse business, because about every four or five years they were looking for another pair…..

    If your goal is to bring them along to pull anything you want eventually – then take your time bringing them to that point and you can keep enjoying them for a longer time.

    Maybe some other folks on here will have other responses.

    March 18, 2009 at 11:27 am #51008
    Gabe Ayers
    Keymaster

    Does anyone else here at DAP have any advice for Larry?

    Maybe we need a subject on animal health, training, harness, etc…

    Of course Carl already had plenty to do an this forum is still the best draft animal one out here….

    March 18, 2009 at 12:54 pm #51019
    Simple Living
    Participant

    It is funny that this subject has come up. My wife and I went to Topeka, In. on Tuesday for the Draft Horse Equipment auction.(only thing I came home with was a bag of kettle corn 🙂 ). While we were wondering through the Indiana Amish area we had a lengthy discussion about the Standardbred Buggy horses that they use. What is the Average usable lifespan? 2years? 5yrs? When you think about their way of going 2-6mile trot to town, stand for 15min-3hrs. 1-3mile trot to another farm. And then 2-6mile trot back home. One would think that type of use would have to bring them to an early end. But as the English go, one man will abuse his car/truck for 2-4yrs throw it away and buy a new one. The next one (enter my truck here with 250k) will keep up with maint. and not abuse it everyday and make it last. Although I’m not sure I gave you any answers, I think it is still food for thought.

    Gordon

    March 18, 2009 at 2:54 pm #51009
    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    Larry, I think wagon rides are entirely appropriate for the age-range you are working with. Being on wheels the load is much more elastic, putting less stress on the horses. I think the weight of the wagon seems pretty good for the size animals you describe, and they should be able to handle it, especially empty, without too much strain.

    I used a young horse, 2-3 years old in a similar manner with an older horse, mowing hay, and spreading manure. They had to climb a pretty good hill with an empty spreader on the way home. Which leads me to the only suggestion I might add. You don’t have to keep them going all the way up those hills. Stop them and rest them several times on the hills if you can. If they can pull it, they can start it, and they can hold it on the hill at a standstill. It can be very tiring for them to have to climb a hill in one effort, especially if you don’t rest them after they get up.

    I also worked my horses that day, and it was warm. Mine are mature, and reasonably hard from working all winter, and I only pulled out one firewood tree, worked for about an hour total, and they were pretty wet, not sweaty, just hot from air temp, thick coat, and exercise.

    Good luck, Carl

    P.S. I have been thinking about sub-forums dealing with specific topics such as Jason suggests, allowing for better sorting and searching. I may get to it.:eek:

    March 18, 2009 at 5:42 pm #51014
    LStone
    Participant

    Thanks for the all of the advice and to Jason and for re-floating this post. Yes, although I have had Standardbreds on the track in my earlier years (teens and 20s) and my dad had the experience and I deferred to him when making the “real” decisions regarding them and their training. I do consider myself inexperienced with horses to the extent of the knowledge they provided me over these years of exposure and from the perspective of a guy taking care of them in his back yard for only three years.

    I own three Belgians, I am by no means a man of formalities but at this point in their young lives I consider everything to be part of a “training process”. I don’t consider myself a horse trainer but I am holding my own and will succeed at having my horses meet the standards of our culture when all is said and done. I am armed with only simple tools such as experience, advice, common sense, patience, and repetition. I respect and admire those who know more and are more seasoned than I. It is part of the “respect your elders” lessons learned as a youngster. I have done a lot by myself and I am wicked proud of my accomplishments with them. It is what it is, and I view it as a hobby for my own purposes, useful to me on my own terms if not practical.

    My goal is to pull what they are hooked to eventually. I am taking my time with them as I find that working with the horses does wonders for my blood pressure and temperament. The pavement to me is an issue; but the exposure to traffic is what I think I am really after in the experience. I generally travel about 5 miles on the roads once, or twice a week with the forecart. Thus my question. How much is too much?

    Carl the advice of stopping to rest and starting on a hill is an important piece to the puzzle. I thought I saw you write something similar in past posts but my thinking was that if they pulled the hill completely then they knew they could do it and would not shy from it in the future. But my point of view may have been flawed. In other words are you saying to lead them by showing them that they can do the tasks I ask of them and that a single task may not be limited only to the end points of a hill? I should show them that the task at hand should be defined by me and not by the hill? I will show them they can do multiple tasks linked together within the confines of the reality of the hill? I got it. I wasn’t aware that if they could pull it up the hill then they could also hold and start a load on the hill as well. Or at least I figured I would do that at a later time when they were further along.

    Gordon
. Kettlecorn? That and peppermints and you’d get along with my guys just fine. 😉

    Thanks for all the good feedback. I hope one day to be able to contribute more to this group.

    Larry

    March 18, 2009 at 6:44 pm #51010
    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    Larry, your interpretation of my comments are good. I also think that by making them do the whole hill (I obviously have no context, because I’m not there) at once can be tiring to them, which can create the exertion stress that you are concerned about. If the hill is a lot of work for them, and they don’t get a chance to rest when they need it, they can become anxious, which will increase exertion stress as well.

    It sounds as though you are doing fine, Carl

    March 24, 2009 at 8:36 am #51018
    OldKat
    Participant

    Larry, could you describe your wagon a little more? Length, width, seating etc? I saw a wagon that someone had gone to great trouble to outfit sitting along a fenceline the other day with a For Sale sign on it, just curious if it is something similar to what you have. Also, what kind of dollars does something like that fetch?

    March 26, 2009 at 12:53 pm #51015
    LStone
    Participant

    OldKat,
    This is the people mover that “Dubba” posted for sale on this site. I make it about 7 feet wide and 14 feet long. Offhand I am not sure of the running gear rating but it is a nice ride.

    I bought the hay wagon from him as well and changed it over to a team pole. The Shakedown cruise was last night. On Saturday We are going to haul home our own hay about 3 miles / relatively flat. The hay wagon is light in comparison to the people mover and I plan on 50 bales to see how they handle it. I’m bringing the truck and hitch tongue in case I need back up but I think they will be OK.

    I am working on the picture part but none yet. Maybe some action shots after Saturday.

    Larry

    March 27, 2009 at 12:06 am #51017
    OldKat
    Participant

    @LStone 7407 wrote:

    OldKat,
    This is the people mover that “Dubba” posted for sale on this site. I make it about 7 feet wide and 14 feet long. Offhand I am not sure of the running gear rating but it is a nice ride.

    I bought the hay wagon from him as well and changed it over to a team pole. The Shakedown cruise was last night. On Saturday We are going to haul home our own hay about 3 miles / relatively flat. The hay wagon is light in comparison to the people mover and I plan on 50 bales to see how they handle it. I’m bringing the truck and hitch tongue in case I need back up but I think they will be OK.

    I am working on the picture part but none yet. Maybe some action shots after Saturday.

    Larry

    I think the rig I saw was longer than that. Made me think it was more than I should try to pull with a team. I am going to keep looking for something more the size you have.

    Hauling the hay sounds like a good task. Be safe and have fun.

    Stephen R.

    June 19, 2009 at 5:20 pm #51016
    LStone
    Participant

    I didn’t know where to post this so I’ll bring this string back to the top since it is still relevant to me. As you may know I started to haul hay from the farm that I buy it from with my young team. Well we did a couple of hay runs last weekend and they worked beautifully for the most part. My team held the wagon on the hills in the field while loading. I wished I had a camera to take a picture of them in that classic draft pose leaning uphill into the load with rear legs back. Truly a sight to behold that not many people get to see, I am sure. Well long story short first day went perfectly with 85 bales on board the wagon. About a four mile round trip.

    The next day went well with a different 85 bale load until I tried to leave this particular field at the same farm. The whole field was on a slope up to the road and they seemed comfortable with the grade but just before the entrance to get from the field to the road the grade ramps the slope up for the last push of about 10 or 15 feet. Well when we were leaving when they got to the ramp, they were trying but just weren’t able to push over the hump onto the street. I decided it was too much for them and I woed them up. They held the load fine and I calmed them down. When I thought they were calm enough, I was able to Haw them over and move them to level the wagon on the side of the hill. I stood them and got down to calm them further to reassure them things were OK.

    Now I evidently didn’t do a good job loading and the load got loose and shifted to one side in the commotion. The load looked mighty unstable so I disconnected them from the wagon. Meanwhile help arrived in a tractor with a chain. We towed the wagon to a level part of the field. where I unloaded and reloaded. In the mean time I had moved the horses to the middle of the field about 50 feet from the wagon where they stood quietly in harness, lines on the ground in back of them for maybe a half an hour while I reloaded. I am very proud of them for that as again it was another “Kodak” moment. The tractor pulled the loaded wagon up onto road where I re-hitched and rolled home with the kids successfully.

    Hind sight being 20/20 I have questions for the group as I know I will get a lot of confidence from the answers I get here.

    1. I keep thinking about what if the wagon would have tipped over sideways or they wouldn’t have been able to hold the load? Is there a better best case scenario that I can hope for than the pole breaking between the evener and the wagon? But what if it didn’t break off soon enough? In my mind I see a lot of injury to the horses. I would no doubt be thrown from the wagon but the horses are committed to the pole via the harness, evener, and neck yoke.

    2. Was I aggressive enough in getting them over the hump? They are 3 and 4 so I didn’t want to hurt them and that was the hardest I have ever had them working for me. They were truly efforting, and when I saw forward momentum stop I backed off shortly there after. They were barefoot on grass and I don’t think they had ample traction for what I was asking of them. Now don’t laugh at me here guys. I am all for working them as I work with all my other tools, but I am trying to play it conservatively when it comes to there development against ruining them while they are still too young and small to really work hard for me. I am still working out this aspect of care for these guys as they are my first drafts, and young ones at that.

    3. Am I over analyzing this? This has been on my mind a lot and I keep playing it over to try to find a better, safer way to test what they can do and keep every experience positive and educational for them as well as I. I am pretty sure they have recovered from the experience and I have had them out a couple times since; but I am not sure that I have gotten over it.

    4. Did I do the right thing? Should I have known better? Did I set them up for failure? While I am not satisfied with the outcome, I will take the final result any day as opposed to what I think could have resulted except for some good luck that day.

    I am looking forward to your here. If we get some sunshine tomorrow a.m. we are off to the feed store. It is a 4 hour round trip and we’re gonna haul home about a half ton of grain.

    Thanks,
    Larry

    June 19, 2009 at 8:29 pm #51012
    Ronnie Tucker
    Participant

    if you did not make a big deal out of it your team dont known that this was what was intended to hapend you restacked the load and hooked them back to the wagon and when on home every thing is ok always remember to not pull them out of wind several short pulls is better than to long a pull if they can start it on the flat they can start it on a hill ronnie tucker tn logger

    July 9, 2009 at 11:52 pm #51020
    Rod44
    Participant

    I have always been told not to stop on a hill if you can help it as it could cause them to become balky if they have trouble restarting a heavy load.

    July 10, 2009 at 1:28 am #51011
    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    Making them pull a hill without stopping is a sure way to make a balky team. If they can’t start it they won’t be able to pull it, and if they can pull it then they will be able to start it.

    Carl

    July 10, 2009 at 3:39 am #51013
    Ronnie Tucker
    Participant

    i wish i had said it that way you put it so well if you carried a 5 gallon bucket of water up a hill very far you would set it down and rest a bit then go on with it the same thing for a animal you train them to pull you can also train them to balk most drivers are the cause of the team getting stalled ronnie tucker tn logger

  • Author
    Posts
Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 15 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.