livestock guardian dogs

DAPNET Forums Archive › Forums › Draft Animal Power › Animal Health › Livestock Husbandry › livestock guardian dogs

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  • August 5, 2009 at 2:52 pm #40752
    bivol
    Participant

    Hi!

    a few days ago i saw a video on youtube about a farmer in usa talking about how many sheep he’d lost to predators, be they wolves, cougars, jackals, or black bears.
    so i thought i’d write a thread about livestock guardian dogs.
    they are good for protection of homestead, farm, and flocks of whatever you have, from chickens to sheep.

    all livestock guardians are independent, viery of strangers, whom they always keep their eye on, stuborn, like it better on the open than indoors.
    they spend every day, all the time, with a flock they guard.
    they must be introduced to the flock when they are still young, and bond with the flock.

    all of them are very intuitive, smart, and calculated in a combat situation, and although they appear to be lazy and lethargic, it’s their way to conserve energy for the night, when the predators hunt. different breeds have different tactics when dealing with predators.
    but whatever the breed, these dogs are DOMINANT, AND NEED A FIRM OWNER!

    there are few breeds of livestock guardians available in the USA, so i’ll count some of them:

    anatolian shepherd:

    AnatolianShepherd.jpg

    a dog from today’s turkey, high, thin and athletic, an ancient breed. work in male-female pairs, and can deal with a brown bear, let alone with a black bear. they never leave the flock unprotected to chase after a predator.
    also a link, from namibia.

    sarplaninac:

    sarplaninac_01.jpg

    this dog from former yugoslavia is still the subject of nationalist tendencies of ethnic groups to claim the dog as their own. this dogs are held in high regard by the sheep farmers in the USA who use them. you have a story of one such dog on the link. anyway, here‘s the link! NOTE: SCROLL DOWN AND CLICK “SARPLANINAC INFO”!

    so, if someone has a predator problem, it would be good to consider getting a guardian dog to deal with it…

    August 5, 2009 at 3:08 pm #53538
    Lingodog13
    Participant

    I certainly agree with your endorsement of livestock protection dogs. I have a small flock of about 60 ewes and was losing over half of my lamb crop to foxes and coyotes. In addition, there were years with loose dogs from neighboring ranches running and killing or maiming the ewes. I either had to sell the sheep or figure out another plan. I had already had the government trapper and private trappers involved and kept the sheep close to the houses, but the coyotes would even come pick through the bunch in daylight. I bought an 8 month old Akbash (Turkish breed) female, kept the ewes in a small field that winter until they were comfortable together, and my predator problems–including the eagles–were over.
    She did kill two neighbor dogs early on, and the ranch was littered with fox carcasses for a while, but my lamb sales have doubled and they weigh a lot more now. When she dies I will get another or sell the sheep.

    Nonie

    August 5, 2009 at 7:03 pm #53535
    bivol
    Participant

    Nice story Nonie!

    …especially the foxes and eagle part:D

    in a place full of coyotes and other predators, a guardian dog can make all the difference!
    could it be, that the lambs were getting more weight because they felt safer with the dog, and weren’t stressed out? also, the ewes gave more milk because they too ate more?:confused:

    well, since your dog’s female, why don’t you breed her? i’m sure you will find other sheep farmers who will be interested in buying puppies after they hear your story!
    and you get to keep a puppy to continue after your akbash is too old, when she’ll be minimum 12 years old.

    do you have pictures of you dog?

    August 5, 2009 at 7:03 pm #53536
    bivol
    Participant

    Nice story Nonie!

    …especially the foxes and eagle part:D

    in a place full of coyotes and other predators, a guardian dog can make all the difference!
    could it be, that the lambs were getting more weight because they felt safer with the dog, and weren’t stressed out? also, the ewes gave more milk because they too ate more?:confused:

    well, since your dog’s female, why don’t you breed her? i’m sure you will find other sheep farmers who will be interested in buying puppies after they hear your story!
    and you get to keep a puppy to continue after your akbash is too old, when she’ll be minimum 12 years old.

    do you have pictures of your dog?

    August 5, 2009 at 9:35 pm #53539
    Lingodog13
    Participant

    Although I do have pictures of my Akbash, I haven’t figured out yet how to post them…. She looks quite a bit like a Great Pyrenees (spelling?) but is leaner, and faster.

    Also, she was sold to me spayed, and so I can’t breed her. I would have gotten her spayed anyway, as I didn’t need every ranch dog hanging around. I purchased her from a large sheep operation nearby, and I am hopeful that they still have a breeding pair and puppies for sale.

    Nonie

    August 5, 2009 at 9:40 pm #53540
    Lingodog13
    Participant

    Oh, I forgot to mention that the reason I think my lambs weighed so much more was that they weren’t spending every day and night running for their lives! For about 5 years there, I never saw a limping sheep or a slow lamb–the coyotes saw them first. Now I have to doctor occasionally, but I’m not complaining!
    Nonie

    August 10, 2009 at 8:35 pm #53537
    bivol
    Participant

    just came back today….

    so, she’s spayed…
    well, true on the breeding, except if you have a male,too. than the other dogs stand no chances.

    glad she’s doing a good work!

    good luck!

    Marko

    August 10, 2009 at 9:39 pm #53521
    Does’ Leap
    Participant

    We have a Great Pyrenees for our herd of goats. No losses of kids or adults. He’s a great dog, very loyal.

    George

    May 25, 2012 at 10:37 am #53523
    jen judkins
    Participant

    @Does’ Leap 10477 wrote:

    We have a Great Pyrenees for our herd of goats. No losses of kids or adults. He’s a great dog, very loyal.

    George, I am looking at a great pry puppy right now. Getting sick of losing chickens and don’t want to pen them up. Can you give me an idea of what kind of fencing is necessary for your pyranees. Does he stay right in the goat enclosure or does he roam the property. I’ve been told they wander… Also, any trouble with people visiting the farm? I remember your big dog when I was there a few years ago and he/she seemed very friendly. Just wondered if that is something you had to work on or if it came naturally? Any thoughts would be appreciated. We do have several other dogs and I plan to start this dog in the goat/chicken barn….I just have some concerns about aggression with people and other dogs. We have a lot of foot traffic at our place.

    May 25, 2012 at 10:37 am #53524
    jen judkins
    Participant

    @Does’ Leap 10477 wrote:

    We have a Great Pyrenees for our herd of goats. No losses of kids or adults. He’s a great dog, very loyal.

    George, I am looking at a great pry puppy right now. Getting sick of losing chickens and don’t want to pen them up. Can you give me an idea of what kind of fencing is necessary for your pyranees. Does he stay right in the goat enclosure or does he roam the property. I’ve been told they wander… Also, any trouble with people visiting the farm? I remember your big dog when I was there a few years ago and he/she seemed very friendly. Just wondered if that is something you had to work on or if it came naturally? Any thoughts would be appreciated. We do have several other dogs and I plan to start this dog in the goat/chicken barn….I just have some concerns about aggression with people and other dogs. We have a lot of foot traffic at our place.

    May 25, 2012 at 11:07 am #53522
    Does’ Leap
    Participant

    Jen:

    Sadly our GP died this past winter. During the summer of 2011, we had our first predator loss ever – 5 goats to coyotes. After that, we bought a 1.5 year-old female Maremma. Based on my limited experience with the 2 breeds, I think the Maremma is the better guard animal hands-down.

    To your questions….we have no containment fence for the dogs, they are free to roam. We have started putting the Maremma in the net fence with the goats, but not always. We have not had a problem with wandering. A good dog will never “wander”. She might do a little patrolling, but she is always close to the herd. Regarding aggression, we worked with the GP a lot as a puppy establishing our dominance. We often took his food away and put him on his back if he growled (which was often). He eventually stopped and submitted. These guard dogs are like no other – fiercely independent and relatively intractable. Basically you need to establish yourself as alpha and let them do there thing (sound contradictory?). One thing to consider is that our GP killed over a dozen chickens as an older pup. I have a friend who has lost dozens to his Maremma pup. Both eventually stopped.

    George

    May 25, 2012 at 1:07 pm #53541
    Andy Carson
    Moderator

    Here’s my two cents…
    I think livestock guardian dogs are really great animals and thought alot about getting one for a while when I was loosing chickens for a brief period of time. In my location (and perhaps because of my attitude too) I didn’t want to have a livestock guardian dog without a fence to contain it. Without a fence, I worry that the dog would not know the borders of my land and start “claiming” my neighbors land. Some of my neighbors are relatively close, and others are seperated by open field rather than by fencelines or treelines. Most of my neighbors have dogs, so having a dog that aggressively defense poorly defines territory could create messy situations. I would be mortified if my dog went on someone elses property and killed one of thier small yappy terrier types. I could see that happening easy… I think the saying is “strong fences make good neighbors”… So, I felt I needed a fence that could contain a big dog, which I fully expected to be a committed livestock guardian. I ended up putting up multi-strand electric fence around the entire place. This fence works great at keeping my current multi-purpose dog in, but it is also extremely effective at keeping predators out. Since erecting the fence, I have had no predators other than possums, which I worry about less than most. I am not sure how possums seem to be able to evade the fence, but my multi-purpose dog really likes bailing these up for me so it’s a one-way trip. The fence completely eliminated raccoon visitors, and I haven’t seen sign of any others either. I know the thread is about guard dogs, but I felt like mentioning fences because the upfront cost between a fence and a guard dog might be similar, you might choose to put up a fence anyway, a fence works right away, takes no training, is easier and cheaper to maintain, kills no chickens, is never a danger to other stock or pets, never attacks your family or visitors, and can serve other useful purposes (IE containing animals that escaped other fences). I want to repeat that I do believe guard dogs are great animals and they would be the next step for me too, but strong fences are very nice as well.

    May 25, 2012 at 1:14 pm #53547
    Kevin Cunningham
    Participant

    We also have a Pyr with our sheep and goats. I love him and he is the best dog I have had, but I spent a lot of time training him, he might even have been more intractible than most. I got the pup in the winter so I would have time to work with him and I recomend this timing because it really helps to start out very firm, no lee way for the addorable fluff ball. Just like every dog the more you socialize him the better they will be with other people. We have lots of vistors to the farm and “Super” loves the company willing to roll over for a belly scratch, even for little kids, but once again this took alot of time and work. George’s recommendation to take to give and take food is an excellent way to establish domminace. I also found that spitting in his mouth after rolling him worked better than any amount of yelling I could do. Also do not underestimate the power of dirty look, this is how pack animals reprimand youngsters, there is very little barking involved. The monks of New Skete, raise German shepards, and have written a couple of great books on these species specific training methods. I hear of too many stories of Prys or German shepards for that matter that are wild, unrully and misbehave, even kiling lambs regullary. They need TONS of training very early and then they will be the best dogs you have ever had.

    May 27, 2012 at 2:51 am #53525
    jen judkins
    Participant

    Thanks for the thoughts, everyone. George, sorry to hear about your GP….was he old?

    Andy, how many strands on your fence?

    In regard to training, I am not too concerned. I am good with dogs. Most people think I spend hours training my dogs, when really I am an alpha bitch! They know their place…or else!

    My biggest predator is the fox….

    May 27, 2012 at 12:13 pm #53542
    Andy Carson
    Moderator

    My fence is 4 strands, with the bottom about 6 inches off the ground less than that and i figured I would have a hard time keeping weeds and grass off it. The spacing in between is kinda wide, but seems to work for me. I figured if predators learn to jump through the middle, I will add more strands. I think 6 is more standard.

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