An experience with a Vegan which got me thinking….

Ed,
I echo your sentiments. I find that I spend all my time and energy focusing on how to continue my farming work, improving the long term sustainability of each endeavor as much as possible all the time, that I find I am hard pressed to keep a civil tongue when a comment like the one you describe comes along…. You did well. Yes, compassion and respect for all. Peace, Jay

Ed that is a great thing youre doing down there.. you should have asked her how she felt about the orangatang being made extinct because of the palm oil production that goes into the make up she had on.. or the loss of habitat of countless species in the search for resources to fuel the plastics she likes to wear on her feet!!.. We get comments like that too. thankfully in the minority.. but all joking aside… these people have a nasty habit of being listened to by the powers that be. I have only met a few vegans but have to say i found them all to be extremists and a bit hypocrtitical..
John

@dominiquer60 21130 wrote:

I understand too, I was in a similar situation in August at our county fair. I was returning to the Draft Pavilion from the Cattle Show Ring with my yearling team. There was quite the crowd and I was doing my best to avoid any hairy situations. We had to pass by a very active Pony Show Ring with many spectators. The pony people are very easy to rile up and one had a nasty spill earlier requiring an ambulance. A golf cart caused us to pause for a moment and my steer Dick decides to call out. I gently tap his muzzle to redirect his attention to me and walk on. A voice from behind, “I can’t believe that lady just hit that cow because it was crying.” Not knowing who said that, I just replied over my shoulder, “There has been one ambulance call already today for this pony show, and I don’t need my animal to cause another kid to fall off and get hurt, surely that would be worse than any tap on the nose,” and then we finished walking back to our stabling. I find often people that are quick to point out something that they think is “wrong” often have no solid basis for such opinions, and probably have some mentally tormented pet at home that they think is spoiled.

Erika

hey erika, we live at the end of a long driveway at the end of a dead end road, and our horses seldom leave the farm.
that is because of what you are saying. i don’t mind people having differing opinions, even when they don’t have any experience to back up how they feel. but i do mind the anger they seem to have that all don’t feel as passionate as they do about their own thoughts.
so i try to stay out of their way. i totally expect someone to try and tell me i can’t work horses any more because of cruel practices. imagine making a horse sweat. criminal.

mitch

I have to respectfully disagree with the long term wisdom of “hiding” our animal use. I think conversations with animal rights advocates are importnat conversations to have, although sometimes they are very difficult. Not responding or hiding makes it seem like we are doing something wrong or like we would lose the debate. I prefer to engage, explain, invite people to see for themselves, and not get angry or call names. Staying calm and rational in the face of someone that might be acting “crazy” goes a long way towards making users of animals look good and discredits animal right advocates.

In truth, some animal rights advocates make pretty strong arguments from a purely philosophical standpoint. It is difficult to, based purely on justifiable philosophical criteria, separate all humans from all animals. Given this, it is difficult to explain why a human cannot be eaten or enslaved, but animals can. When discussing with these types, I will sometimes go with a little utiltarianism first. In other words, point out how it is impossible to not impact animals at all and how this type of lifestyle doesn’t tend to produce the greatest good for the greatest number of people. This is probably closest to how I truly feel, but in debate I use this difficult to completely justify philosophy as more of a vetting process. If they tend to get more philosophical after the utilitarian points are brought up, I start spouting alot of David Hume inspired skepticism. “How can anyone know what is right?” “How is it that you have all the answers?” Etc. I don’t tend to use skepticism as a way to “win” philosophical debates, but more as a way to not loose while demonstrating how ridiculous pure philosophy can get. The debaters have the option of either discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin (which makes them look silly) or go for emotional appeals (which puts them into the later group).

The majority of people I have experienced are not as knowledgable about the philosophy behind animal rights and are just reacting emotionally. I think the majority of these people just need to spend more time around animals, and especially around farm animals. It’s really a sign of how far removed so many people are from agriculture they could think the best thing for a cow would be to “run free” in the forest, even if a cat might find this fun! A tap that would be cruel to a cat is clearly not cruel to an animal 100 times bigger! People need to see this and be around it a little. I think that when many of these people experience first hand how these animals are cared for, and how they enjoy thier work, these emotional responses are lessened. And the few that slip through the cracks seem even more crazy to the quiet majority.

I agree, Andy. If we don’t face it head on, it just gets worse. The current trend of tolerating all this BS is letting things get way out of hand. Some people need to be put back in their place, and get a reality check.
John

Trouble is that draft animal folks are still pretty much a minority and usually out in public with very few other teamsters.. Sure the public like to see us out and about and think its all very “quaint”.. I usually end up in bother when I try to put the argument for draft animal power forward, I get shot down and they smile sweetly!! and that gets my dander up and off I go on one:D.. The weather on the west of Scotland right now is stunning too George..
John

Over the years I have had the occasion to go toe-to-toe with Vegans on a variety of issues, such as hunting, on-farm slaughter, and draft animals.

The point I usually start from is acknowledgment and commonality. I absolutely appreciate their point of view. Animals are in fact deserving of much more respect than most people have an understanding for. I say I love my animals. This is why I surround myself with them. I invest myself emotionally in their lives, whether I eat them or work them. I usually dismiss the concerns about treatment, because they are based on a lack of understanding.

I agree with Andy, we need to engage in these opportunities to practice this conversation, because the alternative is that we are caught off-guard by their shocking misunderstanding of the situation, and we look like we have our pants down.

I have found it very frustrating that many Vegans will use the shock and awe approach to frame the picture in such absurd terms that you might really seem to be a heathen. But like any confrontation, if you are not practiced, you cannot use it to your advantage.

I was asked to sit on a panel one time to discuss raising animals for my own meat consumption. We called it Taking Life to sustain Life. I purposefully asked the organizers to invite a Vegan author from Burlington to sit on the panel. I did not want to have a debate, I wanted to honestly present my experiences while there was another who could present quite another view. We agreed from the beginning that we would accept each other for our individual choices. Since we both hold Love as our primary guidance there was no way to undermine the other lifestyle, as each has its own majesty. It was a wonderful presentation. A real gem, and we both received several commendations.

I know it is not typical, nor is it easy, but I think it is worthwhile. We were threatened at NEAPFD a few years ago by Vegan Law Student with a protest because of unreasonable treatment of animals. I responded that they were welcome to attend, and to watch our teamsters, but that any protest or distraction of our working presenters and their animals would not be tolerated. They never showed up. I never even mentioned their accusations. Never validated any of the escalating comments in their threat, and they were apparently disarmed……

The truth of the matter is, in my mind, the argument is un-winnable. There is no point in arguing. I would rather find agreement and move on.

Carl