DAPNET Forums Archive › Forums › Draft Animal Power › Horses › Working in standing water?
- This topic has 17 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 7 months ago by
Berta.
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- March 11, 2010 at 12:11 am #41489
goodcompanion
ParticipantHere’s an odd one.
I am planning on doing a rice paddy this year. Farmers near Putney have succeeded using a northern japanese method to grow rice successfully in our frosty clime. I’ve got the requisite seed and the manual and am going to take a stab at it. If it goes well I may eventually work up to several acres in paddy. It is an outrageously productive and durable system that invites all kinds of good wildlife onto your farm. Takes a lot of work but then so does everything else we do here.
One stumbling block–“puddling.” It is traditionally done with water buffalo, it involves harrowing or otherwise stirring up the flat bottom of the paddy while it is flooded with maybe 6-12″ of water. Proper puddling helps improve paddy weed control and water retention. It is difficult to do with a tractor. I am hoping to devise a way to do the job with horses.
My past experience is that my horses hate going into water and are really hard to control once in it. I wonder whether it will be possible to train them to work in water. Anyone have any insights into this?
March 11, 2010 at 12:28 am #58690Vand
ParticipantThere’s a lot of standing water in certain areas on our farm and the horses walk through it just fine. It seems like you’d just want to create a standing water area and practice driving through it with your team. You might need an assistant the first couple of times to help encourage them to step into the water (don’t go really deep at first–maybe just 3-4 inches of water); but I’m sure they eventually take to it with no problems.
March 11, 2010 at 12:39 am #58695Berta
ParticipantI worked with two waterbuffalo in central MA, they wern’t trained for draft but seemed alright with the cool winter.
Haveing worked (riding) horses in the mud and now my team of jersy steers, I’d just get a team of oxen for rice work. the spit hoof really seems to pull out easier than a single toe – no lost shoes to worry about either. that and with a yoke there is less equipment to clean at the end of the day.
EDIT:
I opened two windows, one for you post, one in oxen titled “Water buffalo”. I now realize that you aren’t actually the one looking for info on buffalo. I won’t delete this post but sorry if it doesn’t answer your question.March 11, 2010 at 1:40 am #58687jen judkins
ParticipantErik, I disagree that horses are averse to water. They may be initially, but once they understand water, they love it, in my experience. I have a saddle horse who would jump a mile to avoid a mud puddle. Once I got him used to wading in water, he loved it. He would drag me to the nearest swimming area when on trail rides. As long as they can touch the bottom, you have the same steering you do on dry land. Sounds like a fun enterprise. I might have to drive up and take a look… Jennifer.
March 11, 2010 at 3:03 am #58682Participant@Berta 16587 wrote:
I worked with two waterbuffalo in central MA, they wern’t trained for draft but seemed alright with the cool winter.
Haveing worked (riding) horses in the mud and now my team of jersy steers, I’d just get a team of oxen for rice work. the spit hoof really seems to pull out easier than a single toe – no lost shoes to worry about either. that and with a yoke there is less equipment to clean at the end of the day.
EDIT:
I opened two windows, one for you post, one in oxen titled “Water buffalo”. I now realize that you aren’t actually the one looking for info on buffalo. I won’t delete this post but sorry if it doesn’t answer your question.Well, actually your other thread inspired me to make this post. I doubt I’d get additional draft animals just for rice, even if oxen or water buffalo are better suited. I feel like I have enough draft power here already, and the rice puddling is only a small operation in the whole farm context. I do worry about the suction on the clay bottom but it’s worth trying. If it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work. I could still consider pulling a harrow through the paddy from a distance, with a chain, and the horses pulling on dry land.
March 11, 2010 at 4:47 am #58685grey
Participanthttp://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL2173558220070827
Different footing, I’d imagine, but still – horses working in water.
March 11, 2010 at 1:06 pm #58683Mark Cowdrey
ParticipantErik,
When my older gelding was young he didnt like water at all. Now he strolls through it, though I haven’t tried over his hocks.
My favorite way to get them over something like that is to let them do it them selves. E.g. in a turnout area create a division of water with no way around, gate on one side, hay on the other. They may dance & prance for awhile & jump around going through it, but after awhile (weekish, probably) it won’t phase them.
I learned this with window panes. I wanted to teach my young horse about the reflective nature of glass so i put an old sash next to his turn out & led him in one morning as usual. He didn’t like it at all & since I was leading him and making him go where he didn’t want to, he resisted me. The next time I waited until the horse was turned out, walked up to the side of the turnout w the sash, set it down & got some other work done. Let him figure it out on his own.
I’m not saying this is the best way & obviously one ideally gets to the point of being able to introduce horses to a new situation that they are not comfortable with while actually in a working situation.
I’ll be interested to hear how you make out.Mark
Rice??!!
March 11, 2010 at 1:18 pm #58686Participant@goodcompanion 16589 wrote:
I do worry about the suction on the clay bottom but it’s worth trying.
I hadn’t considered footing in my previous post. In my experience, horses do not like sinking into deep mud…for many obvous reasons. So if the below water footing is really spongy and likely to be deep, I would hesitate to use a horse. The risk of injury is much higher in that situation. If I did, I would at least pull their shoes if they wear them.
March 11, 2010 at 2:05 pm #58680Carl Russell
ModeratorI’m not sure how they would work in the situation, but “they” used to use “Bog shoes” in the salt marshes for hauling hay, seaweed, and cranberries. They were simply small planks that had caulks attached to the bottom, and they were strapped onto the foot. They were cut enough larger than the foot to give some flotation, and to eliminate the suction caused by the shape of a horses foot.
Carl
March 11, 2010 at 2:41 pm #58691blue80
ParticipantErik:
I agree, letting the horse learn on their own is an excellent method, I have had best success with water “hazards” by initially leading the horse on foot, however usually on solid footing, as they may lunge forward if they start to sink and fear overtakes them…
It seems they are more forgiving to enter the hazard when my feet get soaked first…;)BTW, I’d love some further info. on northern climate rice cultivation. We have a portion of some very heavy expansive soil acreage I think may be worth running a trial on….
Kevin
March 11, 2010 at 6:03 pm #58693jac
ParticipantIn Britain when the lifeboats were pulled into the sea by horses, the practice apparantly involved reversing the horses into the water and when they saw the water between there front legs shot back into the sea !!! Not to be recomended as a way to train acceptance of water 🙂 I also read somewhere that in the early part of last century the river beds were dragged to dislodge weeds and the horses were up to there bellies in places…..
JohnMarch 11, 2010 at 6:20 pm #58692Charlie B
ParticipantI have not worked a team in standing water, but I have always been able to work my horses where I wanted to. So if it is physically possible then doing it is all there is to it.
When I was in College years ago, I would go to Okeechobee, Fla. in the summers and work on a ranch there. We had 100,000 acre some of it was improved pastures with all the ditching and drainage. But some of it was the Okeechobee Swamp (everglades). We would go for days back in the swamp and rope the wild cracker cattle and drag them out of the swamp. The water there was 6-18″ deep with hammocks every so often that would just be a foot higher and drier. Great sport working in the Swamps, they told me to watch the vegatation because it would change as the water depth changed. Seemed like no big deal that first morning as we rode thru the swamp. But after chasing the first cow out of the hammock and across the swamp, I leaned to watch for deep water vegatation, cause horse tend to somesault when you hit the deep water at a run. What doesn’t kill you, sometimes educates you. Granted we were on fairly solid sandy soil, but the horses were no worse for the wear in the water. The trailer we loaded the cows on in the swamp also brought us fresh horse at noon. Those were the days, playing cowboy and getting paid.
I guess you know what kind of footing your soil will be like when flooded. Where I live it would be a bottomless muck. Much like March is now.:)
March 11, 2010 at 6:29 pm #58688near horse
ParticipantHi Erik,
Interesting thread. I think that the mud/footing might be your biggest challenge – for both you and your team. In my limited experience, my horses are ok with the water aspect (after a bit of repetition) but really “worry” when they start sinking in a foot or so.
When you work up the paddy, is the rice already “established” or is it like an initial tilling? Also, how long will the water have been “standing” in the paddy when you go to work it? Those things might effect how soft the ground is under foot/hoof. Sorry if these seem like dumb questions but I’m not very clear on rice growing.
Also, isn’t there a picture of Lynn Miller in his Draft Horse Handbook using his team to clear weeds from his pond? He might have some concrete experience to tap into.
Good luck and let us know how things work out!
March 11, 2010 at 8:02 pm #58689dominiquer60
ModeratorIf you think of all the trail riders, marathon horses and eventers out there that have to accept water it is very doable. I agree that it will be the footing that could prove a challenge, at these events they are careful to have good traction. I have been on a hairy trail ride or two and a faux fox hunt that had some highly questionable water challenges, I did live to tell and had a great time with no casualties.
I think that it is great that you are trying rice in VT, I have seen some articles on it in the past year. I am going to guess that like any soil, the less you have to disturb it the better it will be in the end. Good Luck
Erika
Photo- it is amazing the expectations that some of us have of our animals.
March 11, 2010 at 9:47 pm #58694ParticipantI see the issue less of being in water and more of working in (potentially deep) mud. The idea of working from a distance appeals to me.
Would you post something more about the variety you’ll be using? I’m in Western MA and the farm I’m working on has some pretty swampy spots. If we could raise a patch of rice here, it would be a great way to make use of the wet clay soil.
‘course, we’ve already got the mud friendly oxen. 🙂
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