Poor soil

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  • September 5, 2010 at 4:36 pm #41940
    dlskidmore
    Participant

    This is a little off topic, but I think you folks have the appropriate expertise.

    I’ve been coordinating an effort in my church to encourage more people to garden, and tithe from the garden. I’ve been making weekly deliveries of donations to a faith-based homeless shelter. There is some enthusiasm for staring a community garden next year.

    The church owns quite a bit of land, but the choice bits are all set aside for other projects. There’s a wide berm of subsoil that’s a residue from when they created a parking lot that the locals are enthusiastic about turning into a community garden. The enthusiasts think the soil is good because the weeds are tall, but if you look at the spacing between stems, it’s obvious that life is just holding on there. I’ll do a more precise analysis later from my Small Scale Livestock Farming book.

    A secondary challenge is that some of the land is also used by the archery ministry in the fall, so spring/summer crops would be preferred over fall crops.

    The third challenge is that the terrain is fast-draining. I think we can do furrows to help channel the runoff along the crop rows? If this was the only challenge I wouldn’t worry about it. One of our members has come into possession of a tractor with attachments that can handle the heavy labor that would take.

    The food shelter’s wish list is: Iceburg lettuce, Romaine lettuce, Cucumbers, Peppers, Broccoli, Tomatoes, Onions, Potatoes, Cauliflower & Carrots. They go through 135 heads of lettuce each week.

    Obviously we can’t do any root veggies in such poor soil. Tomatoes would still be in season when the archery ministry starts up, and the cheaper pole-style of staking them is a bit too tall to see over. I’m thinking although it’s not on the list, we really need to plant a lot of peas/beans and plow them in each year to build up more organic matter? Large self-mulching vines (squashes, mellons) that only need small areas of soil enriched and the archery folks can see easily over?

    Is this even plausible? Should I do a few years of just clover/pea cover crops to rehab the soil before even thinking of a garden? My previous experience has all been with established plots or at least reasonable topsoil with some amendments. I’m sadly one of the more knowledgeable in the group, the biggest enthusiasts have no background in gardening or farming.

    September 6, 2010 at 2:52 pm #62027
    Tim Harrigan
    Participant

    If you do not have any topsoil you do not have much fertility or biological activity. Fast draining sounds like no water holding capacity. A few years of cover crops etc. will not do much in those conditions. Maybe you should haul in several inches of topsoil if this is the only location you have available.

    September 6, 2010 at 5:25 pm #62015
    Joshua Kingsley
    Participant

    compost, compost and manure… Add organic material and you should be able to get somthing to grow.

    September 6, 2010 at 7:50 pm #62035
    dlskidmore
    Participant

    Thanks. I’ll see what I can scrape up for large quantities of organic matter to compost. I know a fellow with some rotting hay in the barn…

    September 12, 2010 at 2:51 pm #62031
    blue80
    Participant

    I’d do some simple compaction tests with a t-post and post driver. Even good soil compacted with a rubber tire scraper/pan during the construction phases will perform poorly for years to come.

    Sometimes herbicides have been used on berm areas to burn down growth, therefore the weeds that grow aren’t thick???

    I’d do a soil test with a lot of samples and find out what you are actually dealing with. Under proper site preparation condition, usually all organic matter is stripped from a building site, then compactable/structural fill is brought in to meet elevations for slabs and parking lots etc. The berm of topsoil remains for landscaping etc. because of the huge costs of hauling it away. I would hope your soil is great topsoil, just heavily compacted….

    Rototilling lots of manure/peat/sand into the existing berm can give you some tilth quickly if the soil is heavy.

    My brother and his wife started a community garden this year and it has been a real success for those involved. About 14 families on a 1 acre plot in the middle of town.
    Best of luck, sounds like you have some time to plan properly before next year.

    Kevin

    September 12, 2010 at 3:53 pm #62036
    dlskidmore
    Participant

    I don’t think it’s compaction, I can see the soil, and it’s the grey of gravel/sand, not red of clay or black of organics.

    After having forgotten them today, I’ll put on my calendar to bring tools next week for a proper analysis.

    I’m scheming about getting organics in there. I think we’ll start with a small area and expand as we have enough organics to add in, rather than do a poor job of enriching the whole area.

    September 12, 2010 at 5:42 pm #62037
    dlskidmore
    Participant

    I did another walkthrough today. The top of the berm looks pretty bad, but the side of the berm has a decently thick thatch on it, looks much more hopeful.

    September 12, 2010 at 10:03 pm #62032
    mitchmaine
    Participant

    @dlskidmore 20780 wrote:

    I did another walkthrough today. The top of the berm looks pretty bad, but the side of the berm has a decently thick thatch on it, looks much more hopeful.

    hey denise, been reading your thread here and it reminded me of an old saying.”add clay to sand and improve your land, add sand to clay and throw it away.” although your “garden” sounds more like a pit.
    then i remembered an old public television show out of boston called crockets victory garden. that was 30 years or more ago so forgive my memory, but he went outside the studio into the parking lot (sand and gravel) and covered it with eight inches of peat moss, turned it in, added some lime to bring up his ph, tested the soil and added amendments and grew some great gardens there. there may be some tapes of those old programs somewhere that could be helpful, but like others have said above, you need something that will hold water and be atleast a base for a soil test. good luck with you quest and keep at it. its good reading. mitch

    November 26, 2010 at 11:02 pm #62016
    bivol
    Participant

    my suggestion is raised beds. these are wooden or whatever “boxes” isolated with mylon or rubbish bags(?), filled with compost and earth. very nice to grow lettuce and everything else on.
    they could fill at least the part of the crops, if it isn’t a problem with archery…

    a must – composting heap

    November 26, 2010 at 11:21 pm #62038
    dlskidmore
    Participant

    I forgot to share my good news, we got the community garden relocated. The new area has thick grassy thatch with a few weeds. A volunteer with a tractor is supposed to bushwack it this fall and plow it in the spring. There is also a pond nearby where we can scoop water for hand watering gardens. Deer are our biggest challenge now, we’re next to a forest (but have good light from the east and west. The forest is to the south which may delay spring thaw until the sun is a bit higher in the morning/evening.)

    December 30, 2010 at 10:07 pm #62017
    bivol
    Participant

    could a good guardian dog be a good chouce against deer? the’re always alert, usually wont chase after deer….

    or, simply a dog on a chain or in a box, that barks a lot to scare the deer… maybe a moving pen, like a moving chicken pen would be nice….

    December 30, 2010 at 11:14 pm #62039
    dlskidmore
    Participant

    I’m certainly going to encourage the participants to bring their dogs when they come to work at the place, but I think we’d have a public image problem if we tied a dog out there all summer.

    January 1, 2011 at 8:56 pm #62018
    bivol
    Participant

    well, you’re right about that. how about making a dog pen? maybe a movable pen would be good, made like those movable chicken pens,… um, a pen and a wire line on which the dog yould be coupled, and could walk up and down, barking…. my imagination got loose again, seems.

    deer seem to be a problem during the night and early morning, so someone would have to sleep over at the plot or put the dog out…

    second idea: know those movie scenes when some makes a trip-wire, that triggers lots of cans and rattling stuff? maybe putting a thin withe a deer would trip over cans and make a racket would be enough ho scare it.

    i mean, encyrcling the whole plot with rope or wire and tying it up to some cans ready to fall isn’t so expensive i think…

    January 1, 2011 at 11:17 pm #62040
    dlskidmore
    Participant

    I’ve heard that fish line run at the right height is a good deterrent, as they can’t see what’s bothering them.

    January 2, 2011 at 5:19 pm #62019
    bivol
    Participant

    @dlskidmore 23282 wrote:

    I’ve heard that fish line run at the right height is a good deterrent, as they can’t see what’s bothering them.

    AND if it also makes a sudden racket, all the better!

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