Taken by surprise; Includes Discussion of handling lines and hitching logs.

Gosh, Larry, I’m sorry you had a bad day….and glad no one got hurt or lost.

Your story reminded me of some basic horsemanship, I was recently able to share with some new teamsters at the low impact forestry course a couple weeks ago. We started each morning harnessing horses together. I made a point to students that this time spent harnessing may be their only time to pick up on ‘problems’ they might face working a horse on any particular day. If my horse is particularly fidgety, or high strung or in anyway not calm and cooperative during the harnessing process, I need to think about what might be going on and plan to sort that out before undertaking any serious (reads dangerous) work. I, probably like you, have a routine I stick to when harnessing and any deviation the horse offers tells be a great deal about how easy or challenging they might be to work with that day.

I would try not to look at his behavior as ‘bad’ or ‘disobedient’….just feedback about how he was feeling that day. We all have days when things don’t feel good for whatever reason and horses are not that different in that regard. In these cases I try to make our experience as positive as possible. That might mean changing my plan for the day or not. I think you did the right thing by taking him back out to the woods after his run off and worked him in that environment until he was feeling good (or at least better) about it. But it sounds like you had some feedback way before his escape, that perhaps you could have used to your advantage by altering your agenda slightly until he was in a working frame of mind. Its a good reminder and I’ve been there many times. Horses are like that…like to make you feel silly and off balance whenever they can:rolleyes:.

Glad everyone is in one piece tonight. Better luck tomorrow.

Hi Larry,

I’m still pretty green but you know the saying about “the best laid plans of mice and men …..” I forget the rest but essentially, you do your best and sh*t happens, still. Even to the best teamsters. I think how they respond is what makes them good teamsters. In your case, what could you do once you catch up with ’em? They’re not likely gonna get the association between running off and some punishment 10 minutes later – so you probably did the best thing. Go back to makin’ him do what you want him to do.

There’s just days for all of us and we are rarely privy to those bad days other people have, so we think it’s us alone. Sounds like you done good.

Larry, glad to know things worked out for you.

I too have had that same experience, and to take him back to the woods was exactly right.

Although I agree that it is our responsibility to understand how our horses are acting, and to be sensitive to how that may affect our expectations, I always maintain at least a reasonable trajectory toward my original goal. I have found many times, that the nervousness can be overcome, and if not, it will become a regular habit for the horse as a way to get out of following my initiative.

I bought a mare 2o some odd years ago who had perfected that behavior with her previous owners. OMG, that was a lot of work, but I worked her for 21 years. Good old mare eventually.

Anyway, my only feedback has to do with your routine for working the animal in the woods. This is one of my biggest concerns with folks who are ground skidding logs with horses. There is a tendency to try to keep the lines in your hands while hitching logs, and I understand the logic to support that idea, but it sends mixed messages to our horses. If whoa means no contact, then what are they supposed to do if they feel the lines moving around behind them.

I train my animals to begin preparing to move as soon as they feel me handling the lines. They are alert, and when I am in production, I need to be alert too, as they are waiting for the slightest indication that I am ready.

However, when I say whoa, I completely release the line pressure, and that means STAND. When I am working with horses in the woods, if they are not consistently respecting this, then I don’t hook them. I work with them on standing quietly, consistently, because as you found out, that is the key to working safely in the woods.

It can be hard to break the habit, but try dropping the lines completely every time you stop the horse. I also have to sometimes work extra hard at delivering my commands in a way that gives the animal time to execute. Like taking a breath or two every time I say whoa, so the horse actually can practice standing quietly. I have to remember that they are not a machine, and they have to process every command. We can get into such a rhythm, and horses are great at learning rhythms, sometimes too good, to the point that they think they know what to expect next. As teamsters we need to be mindful of that, and mix it up, so they end up having to put a lot of energy into paying attention to us, because they are unsure what the expect next.

If nothing else, those are the things I do with a horse that is acting edgy. I start to mix it up, stay ahead of the horse, keep it guessing, make it realize that I am moving faster than it, and it needs to keep an eye on me if it wants to be a part of what I have going on. Which all leads back to some of the common problems of trying to work out the balance between working and training.

It sounds like you have it pretty well sorted out. Before you know it this will be a thing of the past.

Carl

Hi Everyone, Just thought I would add a couple thoughts even though the ground has been pretty well covered already. Like Carl, I don’t usually respond to a horse that seems a little off, by radically changing my plan. I don’t really think the trained horses and mules really have those “good days ” and “bad days” like we do. I more often suspect there is something about me that is different.

Many times I have seen some one come back from skidding a few logs and say the horse was done. They could just tell the horse didn’t want to do it any more. I say but the logs beg to differ, they are still out there, waiting to come in. I never suspected the animal “wanted” to from the beginning.

I also think being alert is one of the keys to this situation. The animal will always be, so we should to. On top of that though is our ability to be calm and relaxed and train our horses to maintain this attitude as well. I can move my lines all over while a horse or mule is standing. I can hold them, or what ever. To teach and maintain a calm animal takes forcing our selves to slow down. when you find the one thing that your good animal gets a little nervious about, make it take longer to accomplish, not shorter. This could be the bridle, harnessing, hitching, standing, or working in the woods. anything. Your driving style should convey the same message of calm and relaxed at all times as well. I found that horses that drive with much pressure on the bit almost always find it hard to relax. In my experience horses with NO pressure on the bit find it hard not to relax.

Now I say “you should”, but what I really mean is, that is what I do. I suppose some might not want to work with a relaxed horse. It doesn’t mean they aren’t pullers, and I won’t work with any horse that isn’t relaxed. Unless I am training them.

@Donn Hewes 22452 wrote:

Hi Everyone, Just thought I would add a couple thoughts even though the ground has been pretty well covered already. Like Carl, I don’t usually respond to a horse that seems a little off, by radically changing my plan. I don’t really think the trained horses and mules really have those “good days ” and “bad days” like we do. I more often suspect there is something about me that is different.

While, I agree with the bulk of your post, Donn and since this thread is in the ‘member diaries’ and we are supposed to refrain from debate…I will try hard not start one.

First, I was under the impression that Larry was describing a surprising event, working with a young horse, that perhaps is not worked daily or even regularly. His questions about the event are reasonable…was he being complacent? Was the horse being disobedient? Did he respond appropriately? etc….

Second, irregardless of who brings the anxiety or lack of relaxation to the working situation, it needs to be a.)recognized and b.)dealt with in some way before hooking an agitated animal to a log. I know you agree with that having watched you work with draft horses over the past few years in a training setting. I think it is absurd to assert that you simply ignore this type of feedback and go about your business.

Although my post did mention dropping the lines, I was mostly iterating that if the horse won’t stand, I don’t hitch them. To rectify the situation I slow down, stopping clearly between the clear accomplishment of each command.

One of the ways that I help to clarify that communication to my animals is by completely dropping the lines. My point was to clearly eliminate any movement from the lines… if you don’t have to drop them to do that, that is fine… it just helps me to accomplish the long term goal of having horses that will stand IF I don’t have the lines in my hands.

This is not to say that it will solve any of what happened to Larry and his horse, but when I have had this happen, it became clear to me that it was because my horse had not had a clear understanding of what I expected…. and that was because I didn’t have a clear understanding of what I expected…. and therefore I had not communicated it clearly to the horse.

We have incredible mental ability to imagine a whole series of events in our minds, and as we are working to accomplish them we can have the tendency to flow through the scenario without stopping. There definitely is a point where a working relationship with an animal can be seamless, and extremely subtle, but if that relationship is not that in tune, then we need to remember to break down the flow into steps that can be accomplished one at a time. Drive the horse forward. Whoa, stand for a few moments. Haw around. Whoa, stand for a few more seconds. Back a few steps. Whoa, stand for a different amount of time than before…. Back more steps this time… Whoa, stand for a long time this time. Forward…. Whoa, stand, etc.

What can lead to problems is if we get into a routine of driving the horse up to the log, turning the same way, hitching the chain as fast as we can, and getting them started again before they start to move on their own…. I’m not suggesting this is what Larry is doing, I only use it as an illustration of habits that I have fallen into, and seen others do. This will lead to a horse who thinks they “know” what to do. What I want them to know how to do is execute the command I have just given them, period. Eventually we can put all the steps all together into a flowing dance, but I always lead.

Here are a couple of pics of how I set a choker and hook up. I often set the lines down to hook up, but usually I just lay them over my forearm as I have very little work to do because the choker is already set.

Carl