DAPNET Forums Archive › Forums › Sustainable Living and Land use › Sustainable Farming › Timing of spring work
- This topic has 19 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 7 months ago by
Andy Carson.
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- March 10, 2011 at 3:29 pm #42525
Andy Carson
ModeratorI have some peas to plant and have been thinking about when I can get into the plot destined for them. It’s muddy, muddy, muddy right now with melted winter snow and a few days of rain… I am sure I can’t get into it right now. I seem to remember that the timing of spring work with tractors is at least partially limited by soil compaction, rut generation, and simply “spinning out.” I would guess that compaction from a single horse would be a non-issue, they can’t make ruts, and can’t spin out… I suppose that as long at it’s dry enough that my tools work properly I can get started? Any thoughts out there? Maybe this is being too scientific, but perhaps there is a moisture level that would be a good target point? I could probably determine moisture content by weighing soil, microwaving it dry, and weighing it again…
March 10, 2011 at 3:44 pm #66223dominiquer60
ModeratorI have planted peas on March 15th up here in NY, I think that we even had to irrigate that year just to get them to germinate. After years of trying hard to get garden peas in ASAP, it is just easier to wait a little while for the soil to warm up. Even if I can get them in early, the weather is generally not done with winter yet. Once in a while it works out, but often the cold wet soil leads to slow poor germination. Often I can plant 2 sets of peas 2-3 weeks apart and they flower and pod within a couple days of each other. Depending on what your goals are it may just be worth a little wait for a better stand. That is my experience with spring peas.
ErikaMarch 10, 2011 at 4:09 pm #66234ModeratorThanks Erika,
I think western PA might be a bit ahead of NY, but I think you are right about waiting a bit to plant. I googled up this informative chart pertaining to germination of different crops (mostly vegetables) http://tomclothier.hort.net/page11.html. I say interesting because although peas will germinate (at almost 90%) with soil temps of 41 degrees, they take over a month to do it… I hadn’t appreciated the speed of germination aspect. I think I’ll shoot for a soil temps over 55 degrees (with a good likihood that temps will stay that high) because I kinda like numbers I can measure (as opposed to set calendar dates). This can tell me when to plant, but when to start my field work? I kinda want to get on this because I have tools and techniques to test out… I think as long as I am not swimming in mud there is no harm done? Or is there???March 10, 2011 at 4:19 pm #66229LStone
ParticipantStill 2+ feet of snow up here in my neck of the woods. Starting my plants from seed indoors next weekend. I got a month or better before I start playing in the dirt.
LStone
March 10, 2011 at 11:31 pm #66230Tim Harrigan
Participant@Countymouse 25539 wrote:
This can tell me when to plant, but when to start my field work? I kinda want to get on this because I have tools and techniques to test out… I think as long as I am not swimming in mud there is no harm done? Or is there???
Andy, don’t get in a hurry. The soil will be at saturation when it thaws and depending upon how well it drains it will probably take several days before the soil is suitable for tillage. Some sunny days will help dry the surface but the soil and air are still cool enough so drying will be slow. Because there is no crop growing and removing water the soil deeper in the tillage layer will still be too wet when the surface looks good. I don’t know what your soil is like but if you till it when it is too wet it can slab up and turn into bricks on you if you are not careful.
There are some somewhat quantitative ways to measure it but probably the best thing to do is stay on the safe side and keep an eye on some of your neighbors. When they get started, then go ahead.
I used to do like Erika with pushing the planting date, but with sweet corn. Used to try to get it in by mid-April to have the early corn. But I would plant another batch 3 weeks later and there usually might be 3-4 days difference in maturity. And if you plant into cold ground, and it stays cold and wet, the seed can start to rot and you have a poor stand. Now I don’t do much of anything until the first week of May. It is probably not much different here than where you are.
March 12, 2011 at 12:23 am #66231ParticipantAndy,
I thought I would explain this a little better because I know you are detail oriented regarding mechanisms and processes. When the snow melts and frost comes out of the ground the soil will be at saturation. It will begin to drain, and depending upon how well drained your soil is, in some amount of time it will reach what is known as field capacity. Field capacity is somewhat nebulous, basically it is when all the gravitational water has moved through the soil. So if you had a pail of soil at saturation and cut the bottom out so it could drain, after 2 or 3 days when it stopped dripping, that would be field capacity.The soil needs to be below field capacity for tillage without danger of compaction which is the loss of structure and pore space. It varies with soil texture, but roughly 95% of field capacity will be suitable for tillage. The air and soil are cool in the early spring so moisture loss by evaporation is very slow. There is no growing crop so moisture loss in the deeper soil by uptake and transpiration is not happening. So it is a slow process.
Field capacity is a very bad time for tillage because the soil can look OK for tillage, but there is enough water in the soil to lubricate the soil particles enough so there is little internal friction or carrying capacity and traffic and tillage tools can easily compress the soil, remove pore space and damage soil structure. In some cases when the soil dries it will be hard as a rock. It can take a long time to undo the damage in some cases.
So, have patience my friend. If you have some high, sandy spots try things out there first.
March 12, 2011 at 3:14 am #66224ModeratorJust another thought on cold soil germination.
This year I planted carrots in a hoop house on Jan 20, I did not notice any seedlings until March 2 and today on the March 11th, there a few more, just enough to get my hopes up. I planted beets on February 14th, and noticed the first ones popping up on March 2nd with more vigor than the carrots. Usually beets will germ faster than carrots given the same conditions. In this case they both needed the right soil conditions, and that came well after the beets were seeded. I realize that these are different crops than what Andy is aiming for, but the lesson is the same, jumping the gun and seeding early can lead to slow germination, no matter how quick you are they will wait til the time is right.
You may ask why bother? market gardening is as big of a gable as one wants to take. $14 of carrot seeds in a different year with a January thaw, or unusually warm weather may have yielded faster germination and plants with their first true leaf already. Last year our January carrots did well and we were selling bunches of carrots with green tops the first weekend in May, it was also such a hot spring that we were wearing shorts that day as well. So you never know how the winter growing season is going to go, but if you don’t get seed in the ground, you’ll never how good it could have been.
With that said, I like to wait with lower value field crops until the soil has had a chance to dry and warm up a bit, but it has taken me a lot of rotten peas to be convinced:)
Erika
March 13, 2011 at 5:22 am #66235ModeratorThanks again for the thoughts and explanations, I will try hard to be patient… I have to say I pretty excited to get things started! Another point about the field crops vs market garden issue is that heirloom seeds for 5 acres isn’t cheap (although i suppose it’s probably not cheap for veggies either)… Either way, it’s expensive to replant big sections and this is another reason to be patient… When I was planing things out, I think that is there was a crop that could go in early, it would be peas. The earlier i get this done the more time I have to focus on plating the next wave of crops, so I still want to get this done early, but it is probably still too early… This is going to be a fun year.
March 13, 2011 at 5:40 am #66221near horse
ParticipantHi Andy,
You’re getting everyone all stirred up with your talk of planting and tillage, or at least me. Our soil drains poorly and warms slow so it’s really easy to get antsy and go for it too soon. Plenty of times we’ve experienced the “slab up and turn into bricks” Tim mentioned. I’m sure your soil is much better than ours here. Still probably worth waiting and taking soil temps.
March 13, 2011 at 10:44 am #66225ModeratorAndy,
If you ever work Bell or Fava Beans into your rotation they can go in early as well, but I have yet to find a seeder in which they fit, I should email my old mentor how he did it. We only do a few by hand and hoe, but they make an excellent cover crop if you can cover more ground with them.
ErikaMarch 13, 2011 at 1:38 pm #66232Participant@Countymouse 25592 wrote:
When I was planing things out, I think that is there was a crop that could go in early, it would be peas. The earlier i get this done the more time I have to focus on plating the next wave of crops, so I still want to get this done early, but it is probably still too early…
Maybe you need some tillage/planting date subplots.
March 19, 2011 at 11:13 pm #66236ModeratorHa! I caught one of my neighbors discing some ground that was plowed last fall. We’ve got some rain coming next week, but after the ground dries out from that it’s on!
March 19, 2011 at 11:33 pm #66226ModeratorMy south facing small (80x 120) plot that is well drained keeps asking me to harrow it with my beef team. Salad turnips and radishes do well even with the cool soil, of course row cover helps too. I think it will be on next weeks “to do” list as soon as the predicted rain dries up. The following week I can start more carrots, beet and peas as long as I cover them too. Certainly getting itchy to start gambling with seeds:)
Erika
March 19, 2011 at 11:47 pm #66233ParticipantWhat type of soils do you have? You can google Web Soil Survey and find your place and get a pretty detailed soil report. My garden site is pretty much sand so soil moisture does not hold me up, soil temperature and chance of killing frost slows me down. In the meantime I have plenty of pasture fence to go over and a lot of logs to skid in from the back pasture. Nice day today, looks like rain tomorrow.
March 20, 2011 at 12:29 pm #66237ModeratorThe field is a mix of Canfield and Ravenna silt loam, with about a 5% slope. The field faces south and is near the top of a small hill. There is a natural wet spot in one area that is not in the plot destined for early planting of peas. The very bottom of the hill gets shade from the trees that form the perimeter and this area dries slower, but the rest of the field stays pretty well drained.
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