I need some advice.

I would go back to the person you bought him from and ask to borrow his bridle with the liverpool bits and chin chain. If he had them hooked low it applies more pressure on the mouth/chin. If your snaffle bit has no chin chain, he can elevate his head and think he has no resistance at all. A snaffle bit is fairly gentle. Also, put some weight on a sled and go in an open field. This will help to reduce the distractions (geese, etc.) and also give you a larger space so if he wants to bolt (let him) and the weight should tire him in short order. He will get tired of bolting. Although he is not a nervous horse he probably has a little separation anxiety without his buddy next to him, but it will not do any good to hook him back double (IMO) if your goal is to drive him single.:)

@Matthew 25665 wrote:

Andy thanks for the reply I am going to hook him again friday with a friend who knows draft horses well and get his opinion, he is also bringing a few difrent bits to try. I am on the same page as you with big severe bits I like a soft mouth horse that you can drive with light line pressure. I do remember when the guy I bought him from drove this horse he had a mutch difrent style than I drive with his was more of a ( hya get up thair ) to start the horse. I give a kissing sound (sounds weard but you probably know what I mean) and a quiet (step up) I cant see being quiet in sted of rough would make a horse run off. The problem I am having rapping my mind around this whole thing is the fact that it happens within less than a munite and last time within seconds of driving and with no reason no loud car ,flapping bag, dog running between his legs, it is just like he dosent want to do this and is out of here. Lanny what would you figure is a good amount of weight to put behind him. I have a sled for 4 foot wood that is all oak and steel that I figure weighs 400 pounds empty I can probably add 500 pounds or so with green wood getting it around 900-1000lb It pulls fairly easy but I cant move it by myself. The horse weighs about 1600lbs and is about 17 hands. How far could a horse go with 1000lbs behind him if he did run off? I was always a firm beleiver of not hooking a horse to anything before you could ground drive them with out any problem, but I am open to try difrent things at this point.

Matthew, this horse is young and you are correct that having him ground drive before hooking is a good idea, however you have seen this horse pull in a team and single situation so it is not new to him. My recommendation on the sled was purely that in order to correct this situation you have to walk/run as fast as the horse, when he bolts, and be able to hang onto the lines to stop him. When you loose control of the lines the situation is made worse. If this horse already has a hard mouth it may not be instantly you can switch to a gentle bit, and the reason I recommended going back to the original bit. I think you need to soften his mouth over time. You mentioned the liverpool bit was hooked low, which I interpreted as the most harsh setting. There are about 3 settings (less severe) and over time as the horses mouth softens and gets used to your different driving style (voice commands) you can start to raise the attachment points on the bit (closer to the center ring) and eventually switch over to a snaffle. As far as weight of the sled; with it and youself riding it should be enough, although more weight will wet the collar quicker (wet collar is what this bud really needs) but if you are able to ride, it doesn’t matter how far he goes. How much weight was the log you saw him pull before? Use that as a starting point. If you cannot stop him outright you shoud be at least able to pull on one line and bring him into a big circle and eventually he will get tired. If you are opposed to riding the sled then you could hook a running-w on one or both front legs and have someone else walk along with you and pull the w-rope taking up one foot; if the drive lines are taken out of your hands. The running-w should be demonstrated to him in a round pen (ground drive situation) along with the voice command “whoa”. If he doesn’t stop using a voice command “whoa” then have someone pull the w-rope. Pretty quickly he will associate the verbal command with the w-rope and will whoa before using it. The best way is to give the whoa command. If no reaction pull back on the lines. If still no reaction pull the w-rope as last resort.:)

Take your sled and chain it to a big heavy truck.

Then drive your horse, standing on the sled, down a nice straight road. Have someone in the truck drive behind so there is slack on the chain.

When your horse bolts, have the truck driver slam on the brakes. Your horse will not be able to run off pulling that truck. He will get the message pretty quick.

Do a few sessions like this and then you can graduate to a loaded sled. If you can’t stop the horse from running with a loaded sled, at least go for steering in circles and you will wear him out. You can add the truck for good measure if you are not confident.

Worked for me!

Most ideal are things like the truck where the load can be applied and removed depending on behavior. A sulky plow can work great too if you don’t mind randomly ripping up some ground. Just let it roll along with just enough of a set to keep it off his heels. When he runs, set that sucker deep.

I usually work alone, but have used a pickup to a running w. for gelding on a big rank team. The gelding would climb the walls of the round pen….What we did, (my mentor taught me) the horse “runs” from the handler, horse comes up against the w. Person in the pickup should only be 2 ft. of slack in the rope, so the horse drops to its knees, but isn’t abused. The driver should move the pickup forward to give slack the moment the horse “yields” This takes good coordination, as the w-rope should always come out between the horses back legs…That gelding did wagon rides downtown last month….

But my favourite is proper ground work in the round pen. Not because round pen work is fun for me, au contraire, but because it works. By the time the horse is hitched, they already hopefully have experience with whoa, easy, and kiss (my commands for stand, slowup/stop, go) Before I start to ground drive them, they stand at least 8 hrs over the course of a few days with bits in their mouths and harness on. So when we are going to drive them, we have lessened stress…

I started two belgian standard breds today in harness this way for the first time. First in the round pen. Where are they gonna go except around, and they’ve done it before, and they are sick of it. So we go around at a walk until I can do figure 8’s in the roundpen, and then open the gate, and go back and forth past the gate. I stop very often, and brush the horse or tell it my problems. Notice how fast they are breathing, you want to keep adrenaline from running. It’s like a hostage situation. Don’t let emotions escalate by rushing things.
Hopefully within 25 minutes and 5 breaks, they are ready for new scenery
So then we go in an arena sized paddock. With traces up, with one down, then between the legs, then on a evener hooked long. Some horse get bored quick and need to start pulling things to keep them out of trouble. I think an hr at a time is plenty. I am using open bridles whenever I can. I think they like it.

If the horse is throwing its head and pulling against me, I go with a lighter bit. I start with a snaffle, then a straight, then rubber. They aren’t going to perform well if they are in pain. I’ve been working a 12 yr old gelding who was a stud with a rubber bit every other day for six weeks now, he is just getting to the point where he needs a “real” bit. FLexing the neck, and loosening them up to yield to pressure has worked great for me…

I don’t mean to say I know it all, but I’ve had six problem teams here in the past year, and the problems I’ve had with a couple of them, including a couple “runners” is when I “didn’t have time” to do the groundwork, earn the horses respect, and/or let them properly settle in.
They are all different, have fun and be safe!

Hi Mathew, One thing I might suggest is that you look for a long thread from several years ago called “training them the old school way” or something like that. That thread had very many posts over a long period that discuss several different approaches to starting horses. I will only say that all the use of trucks and tractors is only one method. Myself, I prefer to use a method that relies less on restraint and more on my ability to watch an animal and see how they are responding to what I am asking of them. I then adjust what I am asking for to keep the animal comfortable, but continue to challenge them with new things. If you are a green teamster this can be hard to do.

Using a bit and line pressure that the animal was familiar with is important to preventing the bolting that you experienced. By the way, a levered bit is not automatically a harsh bit. It will depend on how it is handled by the horse and the person driving. It is a harsh bit if used in that way. Used by hands that can use the bit (and the pressure it causes) to send signals that the animal can understand and respond to, followed by the release of all the pressure as a signal to the animal that it got it right; they are mild and effective way to safely drive calm and relaxed horses.