Nature vs Nurture…

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  • #42573
    Gabe Ayers
    Keymaster

    I am currently working with a mismatched team, one 17 hand leggy percheron and one shorter, squat suffolk. I have had Pete about 2 and half years and just got Bob last May. They have significant differences, both in terms of physical and mental makeup.

    Pete, the 8 yo percheron, is tall and long-legged, while Bob the 11 yo suffolk, is shorter and squat at the rear end. The size and gait variance has not been much of an issue, as I have been able to adjust the rigging effectively. However, Bob is just a much stronger, more capable horse with more experience in the field and woods. When hitched, his larger, lower rear end makes him a better puller.

    It is their personality make-up that is providing the greatest challenge. Pete tends to lack in confidence and willingness, especially on heavy loads with the sled and arch in the woods. On lighter loads he is perfect, and he stands and listens well with the lines in my hands or not. He works well single and teamed, but tends towards being baulky when asked to really work hard. Bob, on the other hand, is all business. He will pull anything I hook him to, regardless of whether or not Pete is willing when they are on the evener. Their is no quit in this horse, and, sometimes, little patience either. Bob is right on the bit most times out, and it takes all of eight hours of heavy work to lessen his enthusiasm. He also stands well and listens, but when we back up to a load, especially in the woods, he is right on the bit and gets quite anxious. When I first hooked him with Pete on the arch, he would rear up when I refused to let them go ahead before I was ready. We have gotten over that now, but he still does not stand patiently for me to hook and grows very restless if I hook and then make them stand a minute (which I do as a rule).

    I worked with a Belgian mare single in Maine that has a similar mental makeup to Bob – all work and all business in harness. I used a snaffled Liverpool bit with her, as I do with Bob, and in time (2-3 years) she calmed down a great deal. What I am wrestling with now is how long to give Bob to make similar progress. He certainly can do a lot of work and is an excellent commercial horse, but I want more from him in terms of patience and calm when I hook them to a big load. I could use more pressure on the bit and mouth with the curb settings of the bit, but I don’t want physical pain to be the only thing Bob will respond to. The loads I ask them to pull are not beyond their capabilities – the issue is mental rather than physical I think. Also, when Bob is rearing to go Pete seems to be more intimidated which only exacerbates his baulky behavior.

    So, I am wondering what others folks’ experiences are with horses similar to Bob. Is this an issue that I can solve with time and patience? Certainly, he has made progress already. Or, is Bob’s behavior just reflective of his personality – is he just being the horse he is? I have used Bob single a bunch and he has the same behavior. I have never started a team with a pair of young, green horses, but the thought of being able to mold them as I wish is more and more tempting. Then, the shortcomings they have would be all my own! On the other hand, these two are able to do 90% of what I ask them to do, and starting with a younger team would mean some serious time and training to get them ready for work here at our farm and for commercial work elsewhere. In the long run I want a better matched, more manageable team. I do teach other aspiring teamsters with my horses from time to time, and I want to have a safe and reliable team that can be used by folks who are learning to drive and work.

    I would appreciate any thoughts anyone has about where to head from here. My inclination is to give them more time together and see what happens…

    #66496
    Donn Hewes
    Keymaster

    Hi Brad, I like “no pressure driving” to help a horse relax. I am sure some are tired of hearing about it but, it is what I do. Basically I tell the horse that I will use the lines to steer and give guidance on stopping, and how fast we walk, but I will make the horse hold them selves back I won’t do it for them. The levered bit it seen as a harsh bit, but when used in combination with this method of driving, it is simply not. Every ounce of pressure that the animal feels in his mouth, chin , or poll is a signal that they must receive and respond to. When they do I release the pressure,nothing in the chin or poll.

    In my experience, when horses take the responsibility for holding them selves back, it actually helps them relax. As an aside I have always been a fan of the mismatched team. When we ask a team to go all we really need them to do is walk, and any horse, mule, or pony can do that.

    #66493
    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    Brad, I have worked with teams like this for years. There are really two things going on here in my mind. One is the difference, and possibly the dynamic between the two horses, and the other is the behavior of each individual horse.

    I have found many times that when I have a balky horse, or an impatient horse, it often comes down to me asking too much. It is easy to do with all the work we have to do…. we need to hook them up and go. I have found it very helpful to step back. I have a saying “If you’re in a hurry with a horse, you’re two months too late”.

    The horse that is balky needs a chance to build his confidence… slowly. The horse that is impatient shouldn’t be hitched until he will stand patiently. Neither of these activities gets many logs out today, but they will get a whole lot more out next winter.

    My observation is that both of your horses are calm. They are both willing workers, very attentive and responsive. I have no doubt that you could have the team you desire.

    Just for the record, I have never passed on a challenge from a horse. I have buried every horse I have owned. Each horse I buy is better than the last one, and truthfully, I don’t think it is because I have a better eye when buying.

    This is not to say that you won’t find a better team that will take less of your time right now. This is certainly a personal choice. One that many people make with good results also.

    Carl

    #66494
    Livewater Farm
    Participant

    Brad knowing and having worked the Bob horse that you are talking about on everything from a mower to a plow perhaps he is too heavely bitted he will get after it I do know but I WORKED HIM ON A LOOSE REIGN WITH JUST A D RING SNAFFLE HE IS A HORSE THAT WILL GET IT DONE alight hand and patience and you have yourself a horse that will do anything for you and give it his all a true working horse both single and teamed I had him teamed with at least 4different mates always did his share and more
    Bill

    #66495
    Does’ Leap
    Participant

    Brad:

    There are some similarities between your horses and mine. My more active horse, Don, was always up on the bit and surging ahead when we got him 3 years ago. Change has happened slowly and incrementally and it is often hard to put a finger on how and what has made the differnce. Two big changes we made were to change to a Liverpool bit and to practice no-pressure driving. The curbed bit enabled us to put more pressure on him compared to our other horse Jim. The no pressure driving in many ways took the “fight” out of the equation. I also did a lot of round pen work with both horses. This helped us (me particularly as a horse novice) read each other and established dominance. Don used to chase both Kristan and I around the pen, charging us, kicking out etc. We would go in that pen day after day and repeat until he finally relented and accepted us as leaders.

    My other horse was never a balker, just not as ambitious. If a big load needs to be moved Don goes after it and Jim follows his lead. Don still gets amped up, but usually only when logging. Both horses are more up on the bit when we are logging, but particularly Don. I like this, to an extent, as I find them more maneuverable. He will stand fine and tolerate lines being rearranged on his back. However, somehow he senses when I am ready and will false start at times. I reign him back, wait, start over. I will occasionally put him down a notch on the bit from Jim, but usually drive them both one notch below the ring. I saw some benefits when working him single in the woods. “OK big boy, you want to pull, let’s go.” Eventually he would settle and I didn’t have to exhaust his partner. Logging single with him, I believe, helped him conserve energy and be a more efficient logging horse.

    George

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