DAPNET Forums Archive › Forums › Sustainable Living and Land use › Sustainable Farming › Agroforesty/Includes pig production ideas
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- June 7, 2011 at 1:31 pm #42792Andy CarsonModerator
I have been reading a very interesting book entitled: Tree Crops, A Permament Agriculture by J. Russell Smith. The text of this book can be accessed from this site: http://www.journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#treecrops. At any rate, I came accross it when thinking about a low input, sustainable, and organic system to produce feed for hogs. The use of tree crops as laid out in this book, is amazingly productive (rivaling grains) and seems quite practical. It seems that if properly chosen and cared for, the trees such as mulberry, oak, honey locust, walnut, etc. can provide a huge amount of food for hogs, requires no tillage, no cultivation, and no harvesting equipment, as the hogs pick it up themselves. God knows PA grows trees! The downside, of course, is time it takes for these trees to produce fruits/nuts/pods. I think this does sound like something to try, though. I have some land that isn’t tilled right now and would be a good spot for some trees. I am curious if anyone else have experience with these types of techniques.
June 8, 2011 at 1:54 am #67746Tim HarriganParticipantI think Carl has a little agroforestry project going. How is that looking, Carl? I like the concept of pasture/crop trees but it does not really fit with what I am doing. Are you getting any planting done? Drying out pretty nice here, a lot of field work finally getting done.
June 8, 2011 at 2:20 am #67727goodcompanionParticipantI remember that book from a long time ago. Interesting ideas. Don’t hear often from folks who’ve had great luck implementing them. I should pick it up again though. I think it’s still on the shelf somewhere!
June 8, 2011 at 12:15 pm #67720Carl RussellModeratorMy project is clearing forest. Donn was working to build some shaded pastures.
Being a forest ecologist I absolutely believe in utilizing our forests as multiple-use resources, as forest is the standard ecological community, at least in the NE, and any ag is based on processes that hold the forest at bay. Finding ways that tree growth can contribute to the sustainability of our farms is of significant importance.
However, I have a problem with “Agroforestry” in general as the two uses are not necessarily compatible. Livestock management usually places so much pressure on a site that the inherent ecology of the forest is compromised.
I realize that hogs have a natural tendency to utilize the forest for a lot of their habitat, and I am not apposed to seeing them in the forest in principle. I just think that the woodlot should be used like any other paddock in the rotational grazing system, so that there can be a use of the natural food-stocks without undue disturbance from the pigs.
Long term sustainability of the forest ecosystem depends on allowing the natural communities to maintain themselves. As long as we integrate livestock into that with compromising the ecological integrity, we will be successful.
Carl
June 8, 2011 at 1:05 pm #67728goodcompanionParticipant@Carl Russell 27480 wrote:
However, I have a problem with “Agroforestry” in general as the two uses are not necessarily compatible. Livestock management usually places so much pressure on a site that the inherent ecology of the forest is compromised.
CarlThe constant war of herbivores versus trees! exposing the roots, eating the bark, and toxifying the shady area with excrement when they camp out in the shade for half the day. Yeah, I have to say that I kind of like my hayfields tree-free and my woody hedgerows herbivore-free.
Maybe the issue with the agroforestry concept is that it is modeled on plant-animal relationships from a different ecosystem, like the African savannah. I’m not exactly sure why the animals don’t kill those trees like they’re killing mine, but I’m sure there must be a reason!
Grass in the northeast is a successive response to disturbance. So grass is a kind of arrested succession. Forest is the final stage of succession. Forest and field are so fundementally different that maybe you can’t really have both in one place at one time. Which is not to say that you wouldn’t get benefit from a “checkerboard” arrangement with a lot of edge effect.
June 8, 2011 at 3:19 pm #67747Tim HarriganParticipantgoodcompanion;27484 wrote:Forest and field are so fundementally different that maybe you can’t really have both in one place at one time.It is a managed ecosystem so I am sure the challenge would be to find a sustainable balance of carrying capacity. With the area and number of animals I would likely be trying to manage I would see it as more of a flash grazing process with longer periods of restricted access, somewhat like I manage pasture. Certainly seems like too many animals with continuous access would be a problem. I am sure my view of it is over-simplified, it would be an interesting challenge though.
June 8, 2011 at 4:53 pm #67751Andy CarsonModeratorSome interesting math…
The yield of mulberries from references seems to be quite variable with an average of 9 tons per acre. Seems impressive, but it’s wet food. The calorie content is 43 Kcal per 100 grams, which comes out to be 3520 megacalories per acre. 2136 lbs of corn would yield the same number of calories. The mulberries have 1.44% protein, which doesn’t seem impressive until you take into account the amount of feed that is consumed to satisfy caloric needs. It would come out to the equivalent of corn with 12% protein. Figuring about 1000 lbs of corn to raise a hog, the stocking rate would likely be something like 2 hogs per acre.
The yield of walnuts from commercial farms is easier to find, they target 5 tons per acre. Quite impressive, but about half is shell and commercial farms would likely push harder than small organic people would, so I’ll figure 2 tons walnuts per acre is a reasonable goal. The calorie content of walnuts is 654 Kcal per 100 grams, which comes out to be 11890 megacalories per acre. It would take 7220 lbs of corn would yield the same number of calories (IE 130 bushel per acre corn!!!). Walnuts also have 15% protein, but are more concentrated than corn, and comes out to the equivalent of corn with 8% protein. Figuring about 1000 lbs of corn feed to raise a hog, the stocking rate would likely be something like 7 hogs per acre.
The advantage of mulberries (as J Russel Smith puts it) is that they yield over a longer period of time. Either source of feed would require a little (and just a little) extra protein that could be foraged for or fed from other small fields, such as a field of clover that was rotationally grazed. The seasonality of when these tree crops become avaliable and when spring born hogs need these foods matches quite well, but should we be suprized? Not really, as pigs likely evolved to subsist on food from trees with some extra foraging to supplement. Obviously, this stocking rate is rather low, which is one disadvantage. Or is it? The low stocking rate and the presence of “real” food couples with rotational grazing would likley be much less desctructive to the trees. Another disadvantage is that as the tree crops are seasonal, it is hard to image how hogs could be raised throughout the year. Likely there would be one “batch” per year, which is fine with me.
June 8, 2011 at 6:04 pm #67734near horseParticipant@Countymouse 27488 wrote:
….. The seasonality of when these tree crops become avaliable and when spring born hogs need these foods matches quite well, but should we be suprized? Not really, as pigs likely evolved to subsist on food from trees with some extra foraging to supplement…..
I could be mistaken but most/many nut crops are ripe/mature in the fall prior to heading into winter (low food/calorie availability period) and some species use this source to build stores for winter and, in the females of some species (like bears) whether to carry out a pregnancy or resorb (abort) the embryo based on body fat reserves. I know hogs aren’t bears but the timing of the nut crop and usage by foraging omnivores is similar.
I think the advantage(s) of a well-managed agroforestry program is both timing of land use and vertical layering of the crop (trees grow upward).
June 8, 2011 at 6:47 pm #67752Andy CarsonModeratorBy the seasonality of the tree crops, I was refering to a mix of both nut and fruit crops. Specifically a mix of mulberry and walnut trees. The mulberry produces over a long period in the summer from June into August. Sweet, soft, small fruits seem like they would be perfectly picked up by hungry little mouths born in March. March, incedently, is the most common birth month in european wild boars. There wouldn’t be alot of fruit right way, but the piglets would be small and might still be with the sow. Because the sow doesn’t need bred back right away, high protein milk would be avaliable for a longer time and could help get them started. Mulberrys produce fruit until about August. In August, the walnuts start falling, producing massive amounts of food when there are big enough mouths to eat it. After a month or two of eating walnuts, it’s mid october, which is a good time for slaughter. I think what we have here is an animal perfectly designed by nature to eat tree fruits and nuts, especially if the farrowing time is right. That’s what I meant by the seasonality matching quite well.
June 8, 2011 at 7:56 pm #67741Robert MoonShadowParticipantAnd I bet walnut-fed pork has much more flavor (and better) than corn-fed pork.
June 9, 2011 at 12:12 am #67729goodcompanionParticipantAnything to avoid having to shell walnuts. What a godawful job, shelling american walnut. Those things don’t want to be shelled.
But has anyone actually done this with walnuts, fed them to pigs in great quantity? Walnuts are toxic. Every part of the tree, leaf, wood, nut, has this allochemical to which some people are violently allergic but even “normal” people will develop symptoms when overexposed to it–for me walnuts make parts of my mouth numb if I have more than a few. What about pigs?
June 9, 2011 at 1:55 am #67753Andy CarsonModerator@goodcompanion 27500 wrote:
But has anyone actually done this with walnuts, fed them to pigs in great quantity? Walnuts are toxic. Every part of the tree, leaf, wood, nut, has this allochemical to which some people are violently allergic but even “normal” people will develop symptoms when overexposed to it–for me walnuts make parts of my mouth numb if I have more than a few. What about pigs?
I would be curious if anyone has used walnuts too. I would be most curious about english walnuts, as I want to eat some too and the black walnuts are (as you say) messy and tough. As far as hogs being fattened on nuts in general, the idea has been around a long time. Jamon Iberico is from pigs fattened on acorns. Prosciutto di Parma is from pigs fattened on chestnuts and whey.
June 9, 2011 at 11:29 am #67730goodcompanionParticipantAnd “pignut hickory” does not have “pig” in the name for no reason.
June 9, 2011 at 1:46 pm #67781BaystatetomParticipantAs a professional forester I don’t really like the idea of having animals grazing in the forest. However I do believe in using land. If the decision was made that, that land was now pasture, then in my eyes that’s a viable land use decision made by the property owner. It probably won’t coincide with good silviculture but at that point silviculture is not the objective. I would think planting desirable trees in or around your pasture land would be the way to go rather then fencing forest land. I have one pasture with several honey locust in it. I hate those things and would have cut them along time ago but the giant thorns have kept me at bay. My oxen however love the seed pods. I even let a neighbor dump some in my pasture he raked off his lawn. Of course I am running the risk of seeding them all over in the manure.
June 9, 2011 at 4:23 pm #67754Andy CarsonModeratorIt is interesting that the ecology of this type of system is a concern. I agree that is is unlikely that these planted forests/orchards would be very similar to native forests. Ecology is such a subjective word to me in general, but that another topic entirely. Either way, I think it would be more fair to compare the ecological impact of this system to the more standard corn/soybean hog raising system rather than to native forest. In other words, is it more ecologically sound to raise hogs in planted trees at a low stocking density or is it more ecologically sound to use the ground as cropland and keep the hogs in confinement. Based on rough math, the carrying capacity of tree crops is at least the same, if not more, than the carrying capacity of cropland. Also entering into this would be the power required to till, plant, harvest, and store crops each and every year. This power could be produced from animals, of course, but feeding and housing these animals would require even more land and further reduce the efficiency of the cropland-confinement system.
PS. Personally, I have only ever raised pigs in confinement. I found it suprising that this system seems so possible. Maybe it shouldn’t be, as forests are where pigs came from, but it was to me. I am trying to recheck as much math as possible because I think J Russell Smith overstates his case a bit. He said in one part of the book that hogs could be stocked at 2 per mulberry tree, which would end up with 80 per acre. Maybe for a short time, but the math doesn’t support that this stocking rate is sustainable. Still, the system looks competative with corn for total calories per acre and produces a crop every year (unlike ground for corn, which is often cycled).
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