frustrating day with the boys

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  • March 20, 2012 at 1:03 am #43637
    Andy Carson
    Moderator

    It has been a while since I had a bad day with my oxen, but today really tried my patience. Went out with the sled and everything was going smoothly until it was time to unhitch. My off ox backed to far when I asked them to back so that I could unhitch. He ended up over the chain and I thought this was a good time to work on our stand-over command. He was generally unresponsive to gentle signalling so both he and my nigh ox got the pointy end of my goad. And the fiasco began… too far to the right, too far to the left, they ended up backwards and confused. I didn’t want the end on that note, so i unhitched and hitched them up again (more stand over). Then went out for a little more work. When we came back, unhitching was easier, but i thought they still needed work on their stand-over command. So i tied them and asked them to stand over while tied. I thought this would be easy for them to practice when they can’t move their front end… anyway, we practiced a bit with much success when all of a sudden, my nigh decided he had had enough standing over. He refused to stand over and when i ratchetted up the pressure he kicked at me! In response, I whapped him hard and yelled at him. So, he broke the rope he was tied with and i spent the next hour or so running around my yard trying to lure or catch him. When i caught him I tied him very short with four strands of rope and we worked on stand over until he accepted he had to do it. He was very frustrated (and I was too) but i can’t put him back without him doing what I asked. If I have learned nothing about oxen it is that if they get away with something once, they will remember how to do it again and will try it every single time. I don’t know if this goes for all of them, but mine do this for sure. One of those sessions you just have to take deep breaths during and after.

    In retrospect, everything would have been better if I stopped before my clever and very smart nigh ox decided he was going to see if I was going to “make him.”

    March 20, 2012 at 1:20 am #72935
    Tim Harrigan
    Participant

    So which member of the team needs to work at getting his mind right?

    March 20, 2012 at 1:45 am #72952
    Oxhill
    Participant

    @Countymouse 33515 wrote:

    If I have learned nothing about oxen it is that if they get away with something once, they will remember how to do it again and will try it every single time.”

    Very very true and it it will embolden them to find other ways of causing mischief as well.
    Sounds like you handled it well.
    Funny thing is the next session could very well be a great one!

    March 20, 2012 at 2:12 am #72942
    Andy Carson
    Moderator

    Touche’, Tim. Of course it’s not their fault, it is ridiculous to blame an animal. I pushed them too far, yes, but i need to push them some so it’s an honest mistake. I don’t like to spend alot of time assessing blame, just learn and move on. Regardless of the blame, if one of my team picks a fight with me i have to make sure I win it. There really isn’t any other alternative when it gets to that point. If i just put him back in the field after he kicks at me, i’ve taught him to kick. And yes, frustration was building far before that point. When they started to get frustated, I started looking for a few stand-overs in a row so i could put them back in the field. I refuse to put them back until they perform the task I originally ask because if I don’t enforce this rule, I am teaching them that commands are optional and if they refuse to follow them, they get to go back in the field. Not a good lesson either. I feel like this was in some ways a test of wills between my nigh ox and me. He’s very smart, and is a hard worker, but can get tricky and willful with new commands and seems to know how to push people buttons. Sometimes he kinda reminds me of myself when i was a teenager. 🙂

    March 20, 2012 at 2:25 am #72943
    Andy Carson
    Moderator

    Thanks for the encouragement Andrew, I hope next time is a good one too. My money is on a good session. This isn’t the first time my nigh ox got stubborn about something. Funny thing about him is that he’s the only one that really challenges me, but he’s the less dominant between the team. I would have guessed the more dominant ox would be more challenging.

    March 20, 2012 at 3:01 am #72950
    Baystatetom
    Participant

    I try and teach stand in and out while they are in their stalls in the barn. Its a good thing to do in poor weather, and they can’t go anywhere except to move their rear end one way or the other.
    Just the other day mine wouldn’t stand still so I could get the yoke on, finally I had enough and gave the off steer my best elbow to the head. He then ripped the ring right out of my trailer and ran across my clients well manicured lawn with me yelling and swearing behind him.
    We all have those days!
    ~Tom

    March 20, 2012 at 11:49 am #72936
    Tim Harrigan
    Participant

    @Countymouse 33520 wrote:

    …I don’t like to spend alot of time assessing blame, just learn and move on…

    Andy, it has nothing to do with blame. You described what happened, I was curious to know how you thought about what happened.

    March 20, 2012 at 1:01 pm #72930
    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    Andy, just think about this. If you are trying to teach them to stand over, and it requires so much energy that it turns into a fight, are you not teaching them to fight with you???

    Think about holding a foot up. You can’t expect them to hold it there for ten minutes the first time you ask. If you do, you will have to fight to hold it there, and you will actually be teaching the animal that you want to fight.

    When an animal realizes that they can exert pressure back against yours and have some success in maintaining their position, they will try to practice that. When you ask them to do something and they indicate they need more pressure, most of us are inclined to get frustrated, then our escalation of pressure is more related to that frustration then to comfortable leadership.

    The animals are not attracted to a frustrated leader which solidifies their resistance.

    The concept that you can’t put them away if they defy you has some merit, but in comparison to putting them away after a fight, it is a minimal set-back.

    I would also suggest that you not immediately assume that the were defying you as much as indicating to you that they were confused about just what you wanted. Humility will get you farther than frustration.

    Try to find ways in which you can be completely successful without becoming frustrated. Catch them unaware and just give them a big push, get them off balance, show them how big and strong you are, and how easily you make them get out of your way. They need to be watching you all the time, ready to yield to your presence, and to your pressure. Waiting until they are prepared to resist will not give you the advantage you are looking for.

    Keep up the good work, Carl

    March 20, 2012 at 1:38 pm #72937
    Tim Harrigan
    Participant

    @Countymouse 33515 wrote:

    … He refused to stand over and when i ratchetted up the pressure he kicked at me! …

    Andy, I believe if he had really wanted to kick you, you would now have a gigantic bruise or worse. He was probably just seeking a way to express his own frustration and confusion. If he could post on this forum, who would he claim picked the fight?

    March 20, 2012 at 2:32 pm #72938
    Tim Harrigan
    Participant

    @Carl Russell 33529 wrote:

    …Catch them unaware and just give them a big push, get them off balance, show them how big and strong you are, and how easily you make them get out of your way….

    Carl, it is funny you mention this in this way. I had a 500 lb calf that just loved to push heads with the other calves, and he liked to give me little bumps as well, wasn’t really getting the idea that was not the best thing to do. So one day he bumped me and I threw a head lock on him and rolled him to the ground and I did not let him up for a good while after he stopped struggling. That seemed to sink in a little bit. Not sure if it is the right thing to do in all cases, but it seemed like the right thing to do at the time, and I really wanted to convey a physical message before he got any bigger. My thought was that he would soon be too big to ever do that again, but in his mind I would always be big enough.

    March 20, 2012 at 2:52 pm #72949
    sickle hocks
    Participant

    Knowing when to quit…i can struggle with this one too. My teacher called it a ‘good boy moment’ and when things were going bad it could be a fleeting, vanishingly small instant of compliance. If I missed it I’d get yelled at with a ‘get off him!’. It wasn’t the time to ask for perfection, the animal just had to try a little bit and give me something. Anything. The rest could wait until tomorrow.
    Of course that’s horse talk, the bovine brain might not work that way?

    March 20, 2012 at 6:57 pm #72944
    Andy Carson
    Moderator

    @Carl Russell 33529 wrote:

    I would also suggest that you not immediately assume that the were defying you as much as indicating to you that they were confused about just what you wanted.

    I think this is key to how to react to this situation. Did he not understand or was he being defiant? Hard to know without being there and without knowing this particular ox. He’s a very very smart ox and only needs taught something once when it is something he wants to do, or something in his advantage. Even though I know he can learn something in one lesson I still give him several to make sure it’s in his head well. He had just finished “standing over” at least a dozen times with no problems, which is a very strong indication that he knew what it meant. Also, I think a confused ox might swing to the left or right or might stand still. He response, after he decided to quit, was anything but random. He figured out that if I ask him to stand over, he can swing his ass towards me and threaten to kick and “Wow, no pokey stick”. Indeed, there was no pokey stick because I was getting out of his way to avoid a gigantic bruise or worse. It only took one lesson, by the way, for him to “learn” this type of “stand-over” and he would try it every time. I still feel I had to nip this in the bud. Not hard with a longer stick. It took 10 times as many “lessons” to reteach him how to stand over correctly again after one learned bad behavior. I think the best solution to these situations is to not get in them in the first place, and to spot before frustration sets in on either side. I know it is unwise to be arguing with more experiences trainers and handlers who probably know better, but I still think that if I just put them back after being “bad,” it is a step backwards. Is the suggestion that I should have put my “naughty” ox back in the field? Perhaps I am misunderstanding and the suggestion is that I simply should just not get frustrated? That I definately agree with. 🙂 I also agree with not putting him out after a fight, I left him tied short for an hour before I put him out. Hopefully, the fight was out of his head before we was turned out. I want to make fighting as unpleasant and rewardless as possible, both in the short term and the long term.

    March 20, 2012 at 7:58 pm #72939
    Tim Harrigan
    Participant

    @Countymouse 33541 wrote:

    I think this is key to how to react to this situation. Did he not understand or was he being defiant? Hard to know without being there and without knowing this particular ox. …..I know it is unwise to be arguing with more experienced trainers and handlers who probably know better….

    Andy, yes, hard to know without being there. But I don’t have to be there to see that you are being drawn into some unproductive interactions. I have said to you more than once that it is not a race. I know you have field work coming up and I am sure you will get it done. But in training the team of 3 you have to teach them first the mechanics before you can expect precision. I know you are not expecting precision, just do it. In some ways you can hurry some of the mechanics. What you can not hurry is the organic growth and transformation of their trust and willingness to work for you. I mentioned that they need to develop resiliency in their mental approach. You can not rush that, but you can take steps backward. They have limited ways of communicating. I don’t see them, but I think they are telling you that you are pushing too hard, going too fast. You are setting yourself up for frustration because your expectations are appropriate for you. Not for them. Your team is smart, but believe me, they do not have the same linear thought process that you do. And they never will. So that is why I asked you which team member needed to work on the mental approach. The answer is you, of course. And that is not an insult or criticism. Just the way it is.

    I am trying not be be insulted by your defensive comment that it is unwise to be arguing with more experienced trainers. Do you think we see this as a competition where someone wins and someone loses? I don’t even see an argument. I see you struggling to train your mind and get in synchrony with two beasts that you will never be able to physically conquer or force to work for you. If I did not think you could see your way through it I would not waste my time commenting.

    This is a different thread but I see this almost exactly the same as the oxen whips discussion of a couple of days ago. I could cut and past those comments here and not miss a beat. Take a look at those again.

    March 20, 2012 at 9:01 pm #72945
    Andy Carson
    Moderator

    @Tim Harrigan 33542 wrote:

    I am trying not be be insulted by your defensive comment that it is unwise to be arguing with more experienced trainers.

    Please understand I mean this with the upmost respect, I meant you are probably right. I am certain there are better trainers than I and I am pretty sure you are one of them. Your work and videos was a big part of what inspired this switch on my part. I am sorry if this statement was offensive, it was truly meant to be complimentary.

    March 20, 2012 at 9:04 pm #72934
    CharlyBonifaz
    Member

    what, if you realize the situation is not developing in a way you want it and you do not intend to let the boys off the hook before they understand what you ask, what about just breaking off and letting them stand there, until everybody’s mood has cooled enough to give the lesson another start; then, the instant they respond the way you want, let them go?

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