Round Pen "Whoa"

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  • July 18, 2013 at 8:22 pm #80397
    KMichelle
    Participant

    I have been starting a Belgian mare in the round pen now for about 6 plus months. She was taken out of a brood mare herd and had never been handled before. If that wasn’t good enough, she was also the herd matriarch and 10 years old. After consistent pressure and release round-pen work, she now halters and leads, picks her 4 feet up on command and holds them for trimming, and finally harnesses and is starting to ground drive, turn through the center and work with line pressure in a Myler 3-piece loose snaffle.

    In all my work previous, every stop of the horse has been accompanied by a ‘whoa’. If I’m watching closely, I will time it so that I say it a step or so before actually is stopping. In the beginning, I did this by moving by body away from her and taking the pressure off – when she faced up, ‘whoa’. As she got more comfortable I was able to ask for ‘whoa’ by taking a step toward her head/front body plane. Now that I am working from behind her, simply ‘whoa’ will not always solicit a stop. Usually I have to make a movement toward the center of the round pen, or swish a whip.

    I don’t feel like I can go on much farther without having her stop to the verbal command. I feel that I must be missing something, as I don’t think just going back through the routine of everything we’ve done will help. Just keep plugging away at it?? This mare shows a very intense focus and demonstrates a willingness to learn and try… I have a hard time believing she hasn’t figured out ‘whoa’ in 6 months?

    July 19, 2013 at 6:10 am #80401
    Does’ Leap
    Participant

    Perhaps an experienced horse trainer will comment, but here are my two cents: I personally do not think that stopping on a verbal command is a pre-requisite for starting to work your horse. Sounds like she is intelligent an level-headed. I have used the round pen to varying degrees with all my horses. Some take to it well. For others, it has not been the best training tool. Be wary of boring your horse. If you are falling short in the round pen, try practicing the “whoa” on a lead rope. For a new horse, use a twitch or a riding crop. Ease her into it by varying your pace. If she surges ahead, a couple of warning swipes are warranted and then a bonk on the nose. Same idea for stopping. They learn pretty quick. If you don’t have a twitch, the end of the lead rope serves as well.

    In harness, I have followed Carl Russell’s lead and have trained my horses to stop on a release of pressure. This may take some time with a new horse. I tend to give my new horse a few steps and if he doesn’t stop on the release, he runs into the bit. Consistency is paramount.

    Good luck.

    George

    July 19, 2013 at 9:38 am #80402
    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    The way I see it, the horse has been stopping in response to particular body language that you have used…. turning away, or facing her….. just because you use the word whoa does not mean she is reading a consistent message from you, nor has she registered the word with the desired action.

    As George says, I train my horses by recognizing that they love to stop, and use stopping as a reward for performing OTHER commands. When whoa is an action that you desire, it is almost impossible to reward the animal for that action, as the reward that they best relate to, now is a pressure.

    In your round pen work differentiate between intent (pressure) and reward (release). The horse moving away from your pressure (you intend for the horse to move) is the desired action…. releasing that pressure (the absence of intent) is the reward. The horse stopping is not the desired response… the response already occurred, so when you turn away it is not to see the horse stop and turn to you,it is to reward her….. it is you using her language to tell her that she has pleased you, and she is stopping to show she feels the release of pressure and that she is comfortable not only with the freedom, but also with the consistent messages. She will move under your intent whenever you want, because you have shown that whenever she does that, she is rewarded with dignity, comfort, and freedom.

    When a horse understands that communication, she will be easily engaged in the working conversation, and she will learn that pressure off is her reward, her time, and her role to play…. waiting for your next intent.

    I use verbal commands because they enhance the response by adding reinforcement to the physical pressure. More consistent verbal command will help the horse respond with less and less pressure. Likewise, my horses will stop without verbal command, but I use whoa to reinforce that the reward is coming as energy can be elevated during work, and it helps them to be more certain of the situation.

    I have been baling hay recently with a JD 14T with a Wisconsin motor…. the thing is not quiet…. with the plunger surging and the motor racing, my horses are getting all kinds of strange sensations that are distracting to our work… yet through line pressure (and release) I can get, and keep, their attention and calm them down even while my voice disappears into the blatt of that motor.

    I am not going to advise you from this distance, but as George suggests, she may not need more round pen work to learn whoa. You have already seen her stop, so you know she knows the difference between intent and reward, I just think you need to clarify in your own mind what of those responses you are looking for, and which you are allowing to her. Sometimes it does come down to working so that the horse can learn the subtleties between pressure on and pressure off, because it is easier for the teamster to visualize in the context of work.

    Good luck, Carl

    July 19, 2013 at 12:43 pm #80406
    Livewater Farm
    Participant

    Hey George how is that new horse working for you havent heard any progress reports
    Bill

    July 19, 2013 at 3:51 pm #80425
    Does’ Leap
    Participant

    Hi Bill:

    He was going really well until my daughter took him over early this summer. She rides competitively at a local “Pony Club” and tragically lost her Thoroughbred this winter. She has been riding him with growing success which is amazing b/c he demonstrated some the of the same stubborn tendencies (bucking, balking, biting, etc.) under saddle as he did when harnessed. My wife Kristan has asked me to lay off with his training until this fall when Pony Club is over. I deferred. Despite the delay, I am pleased b/c I wanted a dual purpose horse (riding / driving) all along, as this horse will be my on of my “second string” team and not used a frequently as my bay geldings. This also means we will stick with 4 instead of 5 horses. Based on his progress both in harness and under saddle, I am confident I will have him going this fall and mowing hay in 2014! How are your fillies doing? Any pictures?

    George

    July 20, 2013 at 4:53 am #80426
    Donn Hewes
    Keymaster

    As like others have suggested, it is difficult to give concrete advice from a distance. First, let me say that in my own experience ten year old horses can be difficult. I have had mixed success in starting them to work myself.

    Having said that, I think round pens can be trap. They are a perfect tool for a green horses with no relationship with people. For a horse that won’t turn and look at you, or you have no way to get their attention a round pen is great. Once this is a accomplished a round pen is still a nice safe place to work, but no longer necessary. “Caution” The difficulty in moving out of the round pen is not the horses – it is ours. We have to correctly read the animals ability to walk calmly, to pay attention to us.

    It is alright to take each new thing back to the round pen, but then immediately take it out as soon as it is successful. Horses are purpose driven and identify with us being purpose drive. When you start working with an animal like this you should already be planning the first thing it will drag. Where is the evener? chain ? and small log? If the round pen is big enough and this helps you, you can hook this horse in there, but again it needs to go out of the pen.

    The thing you really need to see with each new piece is not a whoa (getting to that) but a calm, relaxed walk. If a horse is walking calmly and pulling a small log, after a few minutes (don’t keep testing the whoa every few feet) it will be perfectly willing to stop.

    Calm and relaxed sounds simple, but it is easily over looked, and can be harder to achieve than we like to admit. That is you goal. Good Luck.

    July 21, 2013 at 12:48 am #80435
    KMichelle
    Participant

    Thanks for all the input, folks! I have noticed that the round pen is a tool with it’s limits. This is the first horse I have ever started using only a round pen, and it was tremendous in helping me to be able to read the horse’s language and feedback, when she was not approachable. It definitely puts you into patterns though, and I think this is the part of her training were it is showing.

    Though her aptitude for focus and learning has made her exciting to work with, she has NOT been easy. After 9 years grazing in a field with other mares and the occasional stallion, she was initially hard pressed to convince I was worth her time of day. That being said, most recently I seem to be combating a hoof abscess in her right hind foot. Which having momentarily put our driving on hold, has been giving everybody and their uncle a chance to poke around at her foot. She has been pleasantly patient with this endeavor.

    I do think she is a horse easily bored and quick to catch onto gimicks. Recently I has given up on asking for ‘whoa’ outright because I was tired of the miscommunication. As I think per Donn’s suggestion, I began driving around and around until eventually, when she seemed ready to stop, I would ask. This typically got a favorable response. I wasn’t confident this was an avenue to pursue, since it didn’t seem direct enough. But the general opinion seems to be for mixing it up and waiting for the ‘whoa’ to evolve more logically… Perhaps driving her with another horse would be appropriate? I’m not totally sure she is relaxed enough with that much rein-pressure, maybe soon. I have linked a chain across the back of her tugs once, this was a non-issue. In fact it was the time I figured on just letting her walk around until she seemed more content to ‘whoa’ when asked.

    Onward, until this abscess draws out!

    July 21, 2013 at 6:18 am #80436
    Carl Russell
    Moderator

    Certainly take advantage of the hoof issue to work on intent and reward. I think handling feet is one of the best ways to improve communication with horses…..

    Sounds like you are very aware and focused, which is great.

    My last two-cents will be that I don’t think that any of us suggested to let whoa develop on its own…. rather focus on other aspects of your work with her, and whoa will be a natural part.

    Your example of driving her around until it appeared she was ready to stop indicates what I am talking about. All of that driving and you seem to be focusing on getting her to stop. Think about focusing on how she is working, which is what Donn was referring to.

    I know sometimes is seems like this is just semantics, but to me it means everything.

    In one scenario the teamster is intent on getting a horse that will stop and stand…. often purposefully trying to tire, or bore, the horse with repetition, until it seems that stopping is a good option. The awareness is used to look for signs that the horse is tiring, or may be looking to stop.

    In the other, the teamster is paying attention to how she responds to direction, how she works under pressure, and regardless of how many times it takes to get the desired response during movement, once it is clear that there is even the slightest try to walk calmly, or to turn smoothly, or to back up one step, then “whoa”, or the opportunity to stop, is given immediately as a reward for that behavior. It will take several replications for the horse to believe that the reward comes unfailingly after that particular expression, but that is how you use your awareness…. “recognize the slightest tries” ..

    In the first, the driver is thinking that the desired result is a good stop, so all response to pressure leading up to the point where the horse begins to suggest it is ready to stop is secondary.

    In the second the focus is entirely on the slightest responses to pressure, and stopping and standing is a decision that the teamster makes, but it is one that the horse enjoys. As it relates to the prior movement, stopping becomes part of how the horse thinks about responding to your pressure… if you will “I will move now under load, because I KNOW that I will get to stop once I do as asked”…. In this way “whoa” develops on its own, but it is part of the bag of tricks from the onset, and enhances response.

    Always try to think of how you can be responsible for the decision making. Don’t leave it up the the horse to decide it is a good time to stop. That indicates that she is not getting enough direction.

    Make this between you and the horse…. have fun with her…. let go of performance expectations that may be coming from the outside…… just be present with her… show her that your focus is on her and how she responds to you, nothing else… you are just looking at HER…. you can SEE her, and she will know that, and be pleased.

    If you are focused on what you want her to do, you already have a preconceived notion of the future, you are not present, and she will be able to see that clearly….. and she may not be comfortable because of it.

    25 years ago I had a very strong-minded mare. She was big, and had been living with folks who let her have her way…. until they gave her to the neighbors to “straighten her out” while gathering sap….. suffice to say she didn’t respond to the “two handed goad” any better. She was a huge challenge for me given my inexperience, but I didn’t give up. She was actually defiant which is probably different than what you are working with, but I was getting work done and sort of nibbling at the edges of improvement…. she was also about 10-11 when I got her.

    As a health care measure I hired Floyd Fuller to come float her teeth. I was pretty apprehensive about how she would respond to being held still and having a file forced into her mouth to grind down her teeth. I was trying to prepare for every scenario because Floyd was in his eighties. We got her in cross-ties, and I started to get tense. Floyd approached the mare with the float in is hand and looked into her eyes, then turned to me and said “relax”(!!!!). I looked at the mare, and I could clearly see that she saw that he was looking at her…. he could see HER, and by so doing he let her know that he was there for her… and I saw her let down her anxiety and just stood there for 30 minutes while he worked on her.

    Floyd never said a thing to me about that, but I saw something that I couldn’t ignore. It took me a lot of practice to refine it, and several (perhaps many) years of reflection before I could actually define it. It takes practice to take presence to that level, but that is where our horses are, and they reward us when we make attempts to get there…..

    Keep up the good work, Carl

    p.s. I worked that mare for 21 years and she helped me introduce two others to work… both of which have been the best horses I have ever owned.

    July 23, 2013 at 3:42 pm #80473
    KMichelle
    Participant

    Thanks for the encouragement Carl. I didn’t mean to suggest that I thought ‘whoa’ would just come about by happenstance, but that it might still evolve out of her ability to work and listen and be patient (mine too, I guess). I’m still trying to digest some of the stuff that has been talked about. By it reminds me of a few months ago when I was obsessed with her wearing a halter but I hadn’t introduced the idea because she was still so tense with her head and neck. Eventually I just stopped pushing the issue and moved on to other things. Once we were making progress in other areas, haltering was no sweat.

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