Need an outsiders advice.

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  • January 8, 2014 at 10:47 pm #82048
    PeytonM
    Participant

    Hello there,

    I need to hear what others think of my idea. In some of my other post I’ve gave a run down about my self but for those of you that haven’t seen them.

    I’m 22 and went to school for welding, I grew up on a farm and worked on farms when I was in high school then I went to school and part of that time I drove semi, single axle staging trailers to be loaded or unloaded. I left there and took a job working for a local farmer being a do all guy, I drove truck with their self propelled chopper, drove tractor, cut hay, fixed trucks tractors heavy equp. the whole 9 yards, I left there because I was getting a flat wage and it sucks when it harvest season and your working 90 hours and only getting a flat wage. I also wanted to get a full time welding job, I took a job half way cross the state and lived in my truck, I would load up with food and supplies for 2 days- a week depending on what I all had going on, the weather and how busy we were at work. I left that place when I found out that they paid kids fresh out of High school that didn’t understand welding or how to do it and how to set up a welder, the second part of my gripe there was I was put in the blast booth because it was a “$#!t job” and I pushed through it like you do any job on a farm you don’t enjoy, and thus I landed my self in the blast booth bead blasting when they were in a crunch, I didn’t care about the fact they put me there as much as I was tired of walking in to a pig pen and 1st shift couldn’t keep it clean and nobody there really cared to say anything so after months of kissing butt asking people to just clean up something I said It was time for something else. While I was at this job I spend very very little time working my horses, I grew very distant from them and it was also a factor why I left. I went back to the large farmer I was working for before and told him I only wanted to drive truck and tractor and not be a welder around there because they like to cob job things and thats not my style, I understand when your in a crunch and need to get by but they cob it and leave it till it breaks again and then re cob an already cob’d job.

    now we get to my question,
    After being away from my horses for so long I’ve really decided that I want to work with them every day and I’ve thought logging and then also weddings, sleigh rides and such things. I’m from WI and have talked with one horse logger that’s from the northern part of the state. I understand that horse logging isn’t a business that I’m going to be having a six figure life style and I understand its a lot of hard work, but at the end of each day I know I would be able to sit down at a dinner table and think of what I’ve done that day and have pride in what I was doing.

    The part I’m having a hard time with is how far in do I jump in?
    I want to buy another team and I’ve found them already and they were used for logging and come with an arch and harness, turn key set up for skidding logs besides the chains.

    I also was told that having a skid steer on the landing is very helpful because some small land owners with sell logs to the locals and you can make money loading them for them, I also can use the skid steer with work out side of the logging side of things.

    I sold the horse trailer I had a while back and got a miller bobcat 225G (portable welder) and now I need to replace my trailer and I’d like to get a nicer trailer that I can use for work and would have a insulated front half so if I took a job away from home, say other side of state I could rough it out in the trailer and have all the horses and just hammer it out.

    so the money end of things, I already have a dodge 3500 drw with 112K with 3years left on a loan, is it worth me spending another 35K-45K on the extra horses, skid steer and trailers ( horse trailer and skid steer) and have a business loan off it? or just buy it as I get the money and make do with what I have?

    I’m not one to go buy things to use them once, or buy something I can only use for one thing and one thing only.

    Thanks for the help and If you think there would be something else I should do please voice it.

    Peyton

    January 13, 2014 at 1:37 pm #82095
    Jeroen
    Participant

    I’d say try it, but try it before investing 35K. Certainly if you don’t have it laying around. Why new horses? You said you allready have a team? Debt is not a good thing for horsemen…
    Buy a cheap trailer and get yourself customers in your neighbourhood so you don’t have to travel to much. No arch, just your trees and chains and try how you like it.

    January 14, 2014 at 9:38 am #82100
    Jim Ostergard
    Participant

    Payton,
    Good on you for wanting to give this ago. Each region of the country is different in terms of logging, that is, available jobs, decent or not wood and markets and this forum is probably the one place you can find a perspective from each.
    I am one who has jumped into about everything I have done a bit too fast and loose with money and luckily didn’t have that luxury when I shifted from skidder to horses. And the wood we have here is mostly cut over and long ago high graded. So I started ground twitching, then built a cart for logs and pulp/ firewood from an old truck frame. Then got enough money for my walking beam arch. Bought a small bobtail trailer to haul equipment and sell firewood off of and an old two horse bumper pull. All this has worked well. When I got a job a ways from home found a cheap camper trailer to live in so probably didn’t have anymore that $5K invested. Pretty much that has worked out. Don’t have the camper anymore and traded the bobtail (I do borrow it form time to time) and try and gear things so that I can get it all into the back of th pick up by myself. Work has increased here and I think word of mouth is gettin me a lot better jobs (as evidenced by some of my Facebook postings). In fact may have enough work to put a third teamster to work this year, at least hoping so.
    So I Gus’s what I am offering is take it slow build up as you go and keep asking here on DAPnet.
    Best of luck and keep us posted!

    January 14, 2014 at 3:08 pm #82107
    PeytonM
    Participant

    Well there are a few things I was thinking of the team I found is percherons really nice looking team I also thought it would be a way to make money with weddings being it was a business ordeal I can write things off for taxes and I could still use them for logging weddings and sleigh and wagon rides the horse trailer I was thinking it would be a business and personal use the skidder trailer would be atleast a 24ft goose neck I can use it to haul things for others like hay, tractors what ever.everything I would buy it would be used for more than one thing.

    January 22, 2014 at 4:02 pm #82197
    Dennis
    Participant

    I would do a little looking into the market in your area before going all out. Start small and build as you go. I enjoy working my animals but to me it’s not that enjoyable when you are worrying about making payments. If you are going to go all in make sure you have the work lined up.

    January 23, 2014 at 6:47 am #82203
    Rick Alger
    Participant

    Peyton,my heart is with you on this, but there is a big risk. If your sole source of income is horse logging, you’ll have to make your yearly income in around 200 days because of weather, breakdowns, mud season, trucker issues, walking woodlots, talking to landowners, locating boundaries etc. If you need say a total of $40,000/year for income, payments, and expenses that means you’ve got to average $200 a day gross. (If you cut and skid on average a thousand feet a day you’ll be doing well.) Can you locate 50 acres of woodland a year that will yield the kind of wood that will earn you $200/thousand a day?
    If not can you start by working part-time for somebody else?
    Good luck

    January 23, 2014 at 10:18 pm #82208
    PeytonM
    Participant

    I first want to tank everyone on here for the reply’s, This is how it stands, I talked with an insurance company and the guy said he figured it would be about $550 per year for 1 million dollar liability coverage. So if its the way I understand it, its only If I caused damage to the land owners property or someone else would it cover it. I would also be working solo, wouldn’t have any workers comp. I need to hand in that form to get a for sure figure though.

    I have a mare that would be able to handle the work and one of my geldings I think would be able to work week days 8 hours. The one things I have a hard time with is learning how to get my horses mental state positive on some loads. A few weeks ago I had an Oak about 15″ trunk, had a broken top, dropped the tree, cut all the limbs off so it was a straight stick, after it was down, also found out it was hallow. I’d say it was maybe 24 feet and the top end was maybe 6 inches it was a weird tree, well anyways my to-be Brother-in-law dropped to tree facing up hill and so I hooked on the trunk and they pulled it all the way straight going across and then got bout another ten yards and I stopped to stand on the other side of the log, and go to take off and they couldn’t move it, I know they could. I’ve seen them pull bigger trees than this one. I tried having them roll it, I changed their heal chains I pulled them way back and let them hit it hard and nothing, It was also on snow, bucked it and half and they were pulling like there wasn’t anything behind them. I also was ground skidding. I didn’t really know what I could do to get them to pull it. I’ve snub them out plenty of times. I love on them a lot when ever they pull a heavy load, or snub out and then get un hung I love on them. I know there are times when they get grumpy when I’m out working for what ever reason and all it takes is a few rubs on the head and they calm down, maybe I’m cause them to get cranky If I’m up set.

    I want to use my horses for doing other jobs other than just logging because I know not every stand is going to be a great pay day. I want to use the horses to also plow food plots for deer hunters, dig gardens for people. Say a small sqr bale cost 6 dollars and you feed a dollars worth of grain to a horse, don’t know if thats a true figure but thats 7 dollars per horse, If I’d dig gardens or food plots all I’d need to take home is at least that much per horse and I’d like to get paid at lest 10 dollars and my fuel if I had to go real far. so If I used my one bottom plow, and my horse drawn disk I can use a team, and say everything went sanny and it took me 8 hours to dig and disk a small garden It would cost them 96 dollars, I went and checked to see what it would cost to rent a rototiller, I found a place that you can rent one for $50 a day. So say I just charged $100 for a garden of a set size would that be fair? All they would have to do is plant it then. If it were a food plot depending on what they were planting I would also be able to help with that.

    I’ve been looking for someone that I could work with but I only know of one guy in the state of WI that logs with horses full time.

    Any one out side the state of WI want an apprentice I’d be willing to take one up.

    January 23, 2014 at 10:41 pm #82209
    PeytonM
    Participant

    The way I would also do it is, I get paid by the hour, I’ve been told you need about 50, Clock starts from the time the horses are harnessed and ready to go to work, un till the harnesses are off them. If someone cried about that amount I would reduce it some and take some of the wood of the lot. I would help them find a buyer for the lumber if they would want but I would not buy any from the land owner, they also have to find their own driver. I thought of having a dually goose neck and fab up some bunks but I’d only be able to gross 26K with out a CDL and my truck weights 8200 and the trailer would weigh in about 7K so thats 7 ton there leaving only room for 19K for logs, don’t know that it would be worth my while to pull that much wood, Maybe if it would be a real small stand and there wasn’t much for a semi driver I would but It would be just more expenses I would have to under go because I would want insurance on that too unless I bought the logs for what the mill paid for them.

    February 20, 2014 at 12:41 pm #82529
    Brad Johnson
    Participant

    Peyton-
    I am a farmer and logger in central VT, horse powered here at home and in the woods. I do not own any of the land I work on with my team. Like most commercial loggers, I work on other folks’ woodlots, but animal powered. I do some work with another horse logger who has a team and also a 45 hp Kubota tractor with a winch and bucket forks. Our operation is small, but I make about 80% of my annual gross ($60,000 or so) from horse logging and in our area there is so much work that I cannot get to all the lots that are on my list. I have only been at this work (commercially) for about 7 years, and for sure I don’t have it all figured out, but I think some of what I do might shed some light on your decision making process.

    To start with, you will not make a lot of money doing just about anything with horses, but you know that already. However, it is possible to make a good living wage with animals in the woods in this area anyways. Beyond the fact that I love working with animals in the woods, one of the most appealing parts of the business is the low cost of investment to get started. Beyond my truck and trailer, the total cost of every tool that I use in the woods (horses, harness, arches, bobsled, chains, saws, peaveys, gas cans, etc.) is well under $10,000 – not bad considering what is costs to get started with a skidder or other mechanized equipment. I keep my costs low by doing my own repairs and shoeing, and I often barter for work that I cannot get done myself. I do have to buy in hay and grain, and it costs me about $5.50 per day to keep my horses.

    As Rick stated, I get about 200-225 days a year in the woods, no more. I try to average at least $200 a day in gross. I do some work by the hour, $40, but this is fairly unusual. Normally, I use modified stumpage or charge by the thousand based on mill totals ($175-250/mbf). I work with the landowner and forester to make the finances work for all involved. The real art of it in terms of finances is understanding which jobs make sense and which are not appropriate for horses. I am still learning how to make these decisions, and it definitely gets easier with experience. Factors such as slope, skid distance, moisture levels, time of year for harvest, and timber value all play in significantly in terms of whether or not I take a job. I now have enough work that I can turn down those jobs for which horses are not a good fit, though I the beginning that was harder to do. I try to average 1-3 mbf a day on my own, and more if there are two of us on the job with multiple teams and the tractor.

    You wrote about trying to decide about buying a skid steer for your operation. I do like the skid steer for work on the landing, but I think a small 4WD tractor with a winch and forks is a superior tool. We pile our logs with the tractor, or by hand on jobs I do on my own, and this tool saves my 20-30% of my total time (little to no peavey rolling on the landing). This makes a huge difference, and more than pays for the operating and maintenance costs on that older machine (1998). Also, in some cases the best method for getting a log from the stump is the winch. Once the initial skid is done, we can use either the second team or the tractor to forward multiple logs to the landing. If possible, every horse logger should have access to some sort of machine, at least for work at the landing. It makes a huge positive impact on our bottom line. I know I will get some objections from others about using a tractor in the woods, but we have proven that this pairing of animals and small machinery works well economically and produces superior results in the woods.

    An another note, I would not advise you to get additional horses at this point. I have had good luck with just one team, and still do lots of work on my own with this one team. The costs of keeping additional horses really add up throughout the year. Also, in terms of a trailer, I use a small bumper-pull (16′ on the floor) that allows me to transport both horses, my arch, and all my tools in one trip. It is good to get one that is extra wide (6’8″ or so) so that you can roll an arch or cart in along with the animals. A small trailer is lighter to pull, more economical to buy and maintain, and allows me to get into small, tight spaces (which are the norm around here).

    Hope these thoughts are helpful. If you ever have a chance to come out for a visit, you are welcome to come see us in person. Good luck!
    -Brad

    February 20, 2014 at 5:33 pm #82530
    PeytonM
    Participant

    Hey Brad,

    I understand a lot of what your saying, I already own a John Deere 70 and I would be able to get a cable mounted on the back, its just not a real loader friendly tractor it is also only 2wd.

    I ended up getting that team of percherons a few weeks back, guy had no more hay and couldnt afford to feed them, We agreed on a price and I gave him some down and took the horses and I am really happy with them and I’m glad he didn’t feed them a little bit and made them starve just to get by till spring. They are in great shape just need hooves trimmed. They are going to be an amazing team and I’m looking forward to working them, they fit right in with my belgian mare and can really pull. I don’t think I’ll use my team of geldings for any sort of logging work. one reason is they are really big and hard to see, and they are really big and hard to move around. really dopey at times.

    I’m really trying to get on a someone’s site, I have a friend north of me but being we have so much snow and we keep getting snow its been slowing his work up. I went for a walk in my parents woods the other day and the snow was up to my hips, and I’m 6ft.

    If I got a skid steer I think it would be down the road and I would just ask to rent my parents. Dad has a new holland LX565 and it has 950 factory hrs, I thought about buying that from him but I would really like to have a 2 speed and a enclosed cab but if he would give me a good deal I think I would find my self having a hard time turning it down.

    I personally have a few things I want to get in line before I start trying to get jobs, one thing is I’d like to get a good saw, I have a Jonsered 2050 turbo but It was my grandpas and I really wouldn’t want to take it in the woods and use it every day because of sentimental value, I would be very upset if anything happened with that saw. I also want to spend some time on a landing. There is a guy looking for some land to be logged about 2 hours away from me, one is 3.6 ac clear cut pulp, I wouldn’t make any money at it, and the other is a 80 of hard wood, I assume its quality sticks. I’m planning on working for the guy I’m working for now part time because its a large farm and only doing some things around there, and I hope that would give me enough time to go start up my own logging.

    the really only thing that is make me second guess my self is not really knowing personally how the mill expects things and I don’t want to start a job and have it all messed up and then come out to be the land owners expense because of my screw up.

    February 21, 2014 at 9:08 pm #82560
    PeytonM
    Participant

    another thing I wanted to ask if it would be smart for me to start working with the BLM or USFS land? or other state or county land? or is it a big head ache?

    February 22, 2014 at 11:15 pm #82566
    Will Stephens
    Participant

    Credit is the tool of the devil! If your father has a machine, rent it from him on the days you need it. Buy what you can when you can. Remember, you are not borrowing money, you are buying time. Sounds like you really would be well served to work for someone else in the woods to learn the lay of the business more comfortably. With your skills you can pick up piece work as needed. Take this free advise from a guy that bought into the “borrow now so you can grow later” school; you may end up doing work you do not enjoy to pay for equipment you wish you didn’t own. On the skid steer specifically, maybe 1 out of 10 people I know who have one use them enough to justify the cost. Around here it cost about $150/day or $450/month to rent one. lots of people will swap use of there under utilized machine for firewood or labor on one of there projects. Any equipment you buy need to increase your income by 35% +- just to break even on it. I try to use a figure of 50% as a minimum for a convenience machine and higher for pure investment. Don’t forget the taxes you have to pay on the income it takes to purchase plus operating costs and depreciation. I’m rambling now but I have paid the banker his debts and I prefer to work for myself.

    February 23, 2014 at 9:50 am #82568
    PeytonM
    Participant

    I really feel a week with a logger would really make me feel safe

    March 5, 2014 at 10:22 am #82696
    PhilG
    Participant

    Will could not be MORE right, credit is the devils tool! I too have been down that road and it just sucks your life away, before you know it you have worked 10 years to build a business and pay off equipment and you forget to live life. It sounds like you understand the multiple use tool thing, that is one of the keys for sure, I traded my skidd loader for a 100hp ford tractor and now put up hay,till, cable skid… way more versatile that a skidd.
    You can weld, truck, wrench, lots of skills for such a young guy, just work the logging thing into your jobs program and that way you won’t get board doing any one thing to much.
    The other things that have worked for me is a good splitter ( super splitter) and a saw mill, value added goes a long way in the wood business, you can suit up and split or saw well over your $200 a day when it’s dumping snow or rain that would shut down logging operations, but then again it would be nice sitting by the fire with your lady and a hot cup of coffee on those day’s wouldn’t it 😉

    March 9, 2014 at 5:46 pm #82785
    PeytonM
    Participant

    I own a 3 point mounted wood splitter that I use with my 70, runs off the hydro, I’d like to get it with a small engine so that way I can get it in places a little better and not have to rely on a tractor to run it.

    My work has picked up for my truck side of things. We got 3 ex county snow plow trucks that will get cut and stretched in to chopping trucks for self propelled chopping. and one for a liquid manure truck. I have my fair share of junked trucks to strip down to build theses new trucks.

    Is there any way I could cut woods for on lots and not have insurance? If I tell the land owner I’m not insured I’m just there to harvest and they have to sell the wood to the mill on their own would that work?

    Spring is starting to show its face a little around here haven’t had the -20*f in a while, starting to get mid 30’s and 40’s now. I’ve been thinking about putting an add out for food plots and gardens and using my horses, I only had one issue I don’t really know whats a fair price because I’m sure you can rent a rototiller for about 75 a day and I’d need more than that depending on how far and how big it was. If you factored in the person working its time at $10 an hour it come out to be about a 160 dollar day.

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