DAPNET Forums Archive › Forums › Draft Animal Power › Horses › Best Horse for the Market Garden
- This topic has 15 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 10 months ago by carl ny.
- AuthorPosts
- January 9, 2014 at 10:09 pm #82059Stephen LeslieParticipant
Hello Teamsters,
I am doing research for a writing project on the subject of Market Gardening with horses.
I am wondering if any of the horse-powered (or mule or oxen-powered) market gardeners here could tell me about preferences for specific breeds or types of horses for work in the market garden? If you do write a response and don’t mind being quoted could you also include your name and the name and location of your farm? If I do use your quote I’ll let you know where and when it will appear beforehand.
Thanks in advanceJanuary 9, 2014 at 11:10 pm #82060dominiquer60ModeratorI am not convinced that there is a best breed or type. There are good qualities to instill in a garden team. Following the teamsters directions are important, but I also like a little autopilot, in other words on loose contact following the rows without wandering and stepping on crops. Maintaining a consistent speed when working is good to practice, as is stopping and standing patiently while a teamster works on equipment. I like a handy team that will take a step in any direction when asked and doesn’t hesitate to walk ahead when asked. I would like to someday train a team to relive themselves on the headlands, if grooms can train racehorses to pee for drug tests on command, it may be possible for a market team.
Just my late night thoughts,
Erika
January 10, 2014 at 9:05 am #82063Stephen LeslieParticipantThanks for your thoughts, Erika—I am mainly in agreement with your points. Though I am a Fjord enthusiast (and would probably like to be a Suffolk enthusiast too if I had more work, time, and money for horses)—and find the draft ponies almost perfectly scaled to our 4 acre garden, I really think it boils down to the individual qualities of the horse: including brains and temperament. “Old Yeller was a mongrel, a mangy flop-eared mongerl—best dog-gone dog in the West!”
January 10, 2014 at 9:22 am #82064carl nyParticipantSometimes the mutts are the best, dogs or horses. My son has a team of bay Percheron/Belgian mares and he loves them. But,just like dogs,I don’t think it’s the breed so much as the individual animal and the training. I have a Rottweiler that is a “wuss”. JMHO
carl ny
January 10, 2014 at 9:29 am #82065Carl RussellModeratorI am not a “market gardener”, so my points may be inconclusive, but I think it has less to do with the animal (some are using split-hoove creatures too), and more to do with the person….. I know… same old saw….
I find it distracting when teamsters are thinking about their relationship with their animal in terms of the tasks they want to perform. I use my nasty-ass scrappy logging horses to pull single row cultivators. No doubt I have had some horse-blight over the years, but generally I get the kind of work out of them that I expect in the moment. There is no program in breed, nor size, nor species that will automatically address the requirements of any particular task.
Now if all you are ever going to do with your animals is work them in a market garden, presumably quite large, then there may be room for establishing habitual expectations. Not unlike the bygone milk-wagon or fire-house horses, when the task is repetitive, and consistent, the animal can become automatic to some degree. I personally find that disheartening.
I like to work with animals with spirit. To me the power of the draft-animal is on the front edge of that spark that brings us into the present. Being there, communicating, directing, cooperating, in team with the animal is much more dignified to me. I drove some sleigh-ride horses years ago that would virtually step in the same prints trip after trip. The owner loved that, and would just go along for the ride. I had to stop driving them, it was a sad experience for me.
Now if you want to get into the economics of keeping smaller horses, or the affordability of purchasing certain breeds, as compared to the financial expectations of a particular task, and whether the market garden is the primary income stream or just part of a diversified landscape with other power expectations, then I think you have some ground to cover.
Thanks for doing this Stephen. I look forward to the outcome.
Carl
January 10, 2014 at 11:24 am #82069Rick AlgerParticipantI don’t know much about horses for market gardening, but I read something our local paper mill put out years ago regarding the ideal logging horse. They said a 1700 pound horse had the most efficient feed/work ratio in our type of woods. They also had some comments on temperament and confirmation, but I don’t remember the details. I hope Stephen can find a similar profile for gardening horses.
January 10, 2014 at 3:39 pm #82070JeroenParticipantThis is a discussion which always makes me smile. Stephen poses the question, knowing the answers.. But the explications and the stories behind the choices which are interesting.
In my case for example, I owned a breed (brabançons) and started my market garden after moving to France. 2000 pound mares in the tiniest of market gardens looks a bit silly when starting, but I soon found out they can do anything if you can do it. They are not a matched team, one is speedy and pulls the cultivator like a big tree, so we take the other one for the delicate weeding of young plants. She walks slowly and more important puts her front feet down in a way that she does not throw up too much dirt on the young plants. Mrs speedy gets her share on the forecart hauling manure to the garden and produce back. We use them as a team for plowing and after a while the go well together. In winter they both go logging, where their power is more handy. Next year I hope to be working in wineyards too, which will be interesting regarding their differences.
January 10, 2014 at 4:46 pm #82073Donn HewesKeymasterHi Stephen, You might not be getting exactly what you hoped for but a lot of good comments, none the less. I am not a professional market garden person myself, but we are doing a little cultivating each year.
As usual, Carl takes us beyond our first response. Obviously if I am only going to cultivate for one or two days a year, and I will be looking between my legs trying to figure out which pedal is which, I will want my quietest slowest horse. But now fast forward a couple years to when we have increased the acreage, and our skill as a teamster and with the tool; it is hot and there is still two acres to go. You will want a horse with a little more eagerness.
I don’t think size is the key, although I suppose someone could make a case for a certain size matching a certain size of operation. Finally I think good cultivating horses will come from careful study of the animal and task, and dedicated leadership to show them what we want.
January 12, 2014 at 10:05 am #82083Will StephensParticipantOn the edges of relevance but Seems like the right group to ask. Nature verses nurture? Is the “right” horse for the job you want to do found or does one “make” the horse you want with the addition to the horse of your time? Really asking here. I have heard people say “that’s not the right horse for what you want to do.” More correctly, people are saying that to me and as an inexperienced horseman, I don’t know how to know.
Lynn Miller says (paraphrasing) “whatever horse you see out your window that makes you want to be out there with them is the right horse for the job.”
January 12, 2014 at 10:34 am #82085carl nyParticipantI think that horses are just like people,each one is different.They will do certain things better than others and another horse will be just the opposite.Not that you can’t plow with a hitch horse or hitch with plow horse,but they will do one or the other a lot better.I know you can barrel race a draft and you can mow with a quarter horse,just not as good or efficient. It doesn’t have to be different breeds,just there temperament and actions can make a big difference.That being said,you can train just about any horse to do what you want,just maybe not as good or efficient as another horse. JMHO
carl ny
January 12, 2014 at 3:47 pm #82091Will StephensParticipantAgreed Carl. As the novice market gardener/Barrel racer the trick is to find a horse inclined in personality/temperament to your needs. Without a good mentor I have struggled with this. An interesting side bar for an article on which is the “best horse” for a market garden might be the process one might use to find the “right” horse before paying for and bringing the wrong one home. I’d read that!
January 13, 2014 at 12:19 pm #82093Stephen LeslieParticipantSo many great comments—Wonderful conversation here!
Will Stephens —I hope your question is a catalyst for more fine deliberations….
I heard from Eric Nordell last year (very experienced horseman) that he brought home a big gelding from auction to fill out his work force. Within a couple of weeks one of this horse’s rear hocks ballooned up and despite treatment and money spent, it could not be cured and the horse had to be put down. Next, Anne & Eric bought a Suffolk mare from a local man who said: “Work her for the summer and if you don’t like her bring her back and I’ll give you back your money”. Probably not easy to find someone who deals in horseflesh with that kind of integrity (and of course, he had confidence in Eric not to mess up his horse)—but I guess that’s the kind of person I’ll be looking for next time I need to buy a horse.
Carl Russell—-thanks for sharing your vision of what keeps you in relationship with your horses…beautifull
On the scale we are working (4 acre garden) I find we are using enough diversity of implements and shifting tasks as the season progresses to keep me and (I think) the horses fully engaged and challenged (in a good way). We also get them in on some hay and woods work—the haying in particular is a great change of rhythm from the relatively confined space of the garden. Another facet that has kept things lively for me has been training and integrating two younger horses into the work force (with a settled team to help me in the process) over the last three years—a work in progress.
To give a sense of what I mean about diversity of tasks—below is printed our:
Cedar Mountain Farm Horse-Drawn Essential Equipment List
Basic forecart
Hillsdale 9ʺ single-horse plow
Pioneer 14ʺ walking plow
Syracuse 10” two-way riding plow
6′ disc
3′ spring-tooth harrow (nine teeth)
5′ flex harrow
5′ spike-tooth harrow
60-bushel John Deere manure spreader
International Harvester walk-behind cultivator
McCormick-Deering straddle row cultivator
Second McCormick-Deering straddle row cultivator set up with disc hiller attachments for potatoes, leeks, and corn
McCormick-Deering no. 6 mower (for clipping cover crops and headlands)
Hoover single row potato digger
Harvest wagon
Flatbed hay wagon used for harvesting crops
I&J three-point-hitch adapter for basic forecart with tool bar
Grimm tedder
New Holland rake
I think it is a tribute to the intelligence of the equine that they can shift so readily between this many implements.January 14, 2014 at 1:46 am #82098EliParticipantI hope to have some input by fall but I’m pretty we will use our old curly mare to cultivate. I think my hafi/QH team may run down the whole garden. Love all the research and can’t wait for the next book. Eli
January 14, 2014 at 5:37 pm #82108Stephen LeslieParticipantBelow is a summation of some of the great answers received to the “Best Horse” question both from here and from the Rural Heritage forum.
Carl in Ny and Jeroen in France–if you don’t mind having your response reprinted could you tell me your whole name and name of farm (Carl—town,too?) hartlandyoga@yahoo.comReports from the Field
The ideal Breed or Type? Erika Marczak, Abington Grown, Abington, CT.I am not convinced that there is a best breed or type. There are good qualities to instill in a garden team. Following the teamsters directions are important, but I also like a little autopilot, in other words on loose line contact following the rows without wandering and stepping on crops. Maintaining a consistent speed when working is good to practice, as is stopping and standing patiently while a teamster works on equipment. I like a handy team that will take a step in any direction when asked and doesn’t hesitate to walk ahead when asked. I would like to someday train a team to relieve themselves on the headlands; if grooms can train racehorses to pee for drug tests on command—it may be possible for a market team.
Temperament not Size or Breed
Klaus Karbaumer, Karbaumer Farm, Kansas City, Missouri
A quiet , cooperative horse which is willing to follow commands and is physically able to do what is requested. Depending on the soil type and the size of equipment used, that can be any breed and almost any size. For cultivation purposes the horse’s width of stride has to fit into the rows or they have to be adjusted. Many of today’s high strung show type draft horses do not fit that description, but then there are always exceptions. I do not think a single breed can be preferred or declined over others if the individual horse meets the demand.
I have worked with Norikers, Haflingers, Kladrubers , Belgians , Percherons, Bavarian Warmbloods and even with a Shetland pony and the remarks above reflect my experience with these horses.
A Horse with Spirit
Carl Russell, Earthwise Farm and Forest, Bethel, Vermont
I am not a “market gardener”, so my points may be inconclusive, but I think it has less to do with the animal (some are using split-hooved creatures too), and more to do with the person….. I know… same old saw….
I find it distracting when teamsters are thinking about their relationship with their animal in terms of the tasks they want to perform. I use my nasty-ass scrappy logging horses to pull single row cultivators. No doubt I have had some horse-blight over the years, but generally I get the kind of work out of them that I expect in the moment. There is no program in breed, nor size, nor species that will automatically address the requirements of any particular task.
Now if all you are ever going to do with your animals is work them in a market garden, presumably quite large, then there may be room for establishing habitual expectations. Not unlike the bygone milk-wagon or fire-house horses, when the task is repetitive, and consistent, the animal can become automatic to some degree. I personally find that disheartening.
I like to work with animals with spirit. To me the power of the draft-animal is on the front edge of that spark that brings us into the present. Being there, communicating, directing, cooperating, in team with the animal is much more dignified to me. I drove some sleigh-ride horses years ago that would virtually step in the same prints trip after trip. The owner loved that, and would just go along for the ride. I had to stop driving them, it was a sad experience for me.
Now if you want to get into the economics of keeping smaller horses, or the affordability of purchasing certain breeds, as compared to the financial expectations of a particular task, and whether the market garden is the primary income stream or just part of a diversified landscape with other power expectations, then I think you have some ground to cover.
A Horse needs different Gears
Mark Gillenwater
Just as a riding horse has gaits, a garden horse needs gears. In the spring when it is time to turn the soil, my team likes to walk somewhat fast at first, hitched to the Vulcan 13 or Oliver 40 walking turning plow but then they settle in. It may okay to walk fast to the patch but when cultivating tender crops, a steady slow walk is desired. I use a single horse to make my rows for dropping in potatoes and to cultivate my corps on our small farm. The single horse I use from my team is a Suffolk gelding going on 18yrs.
Big Horse works well in little Plot
Jeroen, Charentte, France
This is a discussion which always makes me smile. It is the explications and the stories behind the choices which I find interesting. In my case for example, I owned a breed (brabançons) and started my market garden after moving to France. 2000 pound mares in the tiniest of market gardens looks a bit silly when starting, but I soon found out they can do anything if you can do it. Mine are not a matched team, one is speedy and pulls the cultivator like a big tree, so we take the other one for the delicate weeding of young plants. She walks slowly and more important puts her front feet down in a way that she does not throw up too much dirt on the young plants. Mrs. speedy gets her share on the forecart hauling manure to the garden and produce back. We use them as a team for plowing and after a while they go well together. In winter they both go logging, where their power is more handy. Next year I hope to be working in vineyards too, which will be interesting regarding their differences.
Eagerness the Key
Donn Hewes, Northland Sheep Dairy, Marathon, NY
I am not a professional market garden person myself (primarily a grass and hay farmer), but we are doing a little cultivating each year. Obviously if I am only going to cultivate for one or two days a year, and I will be looking between my legs trying to figure out which pedal is which, I will want my quietest slowest horse. But now fast forward a couple years to when we have increased the acreage, and our skill as a teamster and with the tool; it is hot and there is still two acres to go. You will want a horse with a little more eagerness.
I don’t think size is the key, although I suppose someone could make a case for a certain size matching a certain size of operation. Finally I think good cultivating horses will come from careful study of the animal and task, and dedicated leadership to show them what we want.
Horses are like People
Carl NY
Horses are just like people: each one is different. They will do certain things better than others and another horse will be just the opposite. Not that you can’t plow with a hitch horse or hitch with plow horse, but they will do one or the other a lot better. I know you can barrel race a draft and you can mow with a quarter horse, just not as good or efficient. It doesn’t have to be different breeds, just there temperament and actions can make a big difference. That being said, you can train just about any horse to do what you want, just maybe not as good or efficient as another horse.
Bigger not always better
Michael Wilson, Horse logger and blacksmith, Bluemont, Virginia
Forty years or more ago a savvy old man (late 80s then) who had a feed and grain warehouse, and tack and harness store in New Milford, CT shared some information with me that I have never forgotten. Perry Green had lived through the peak and the nadir of draft horses in America. Even during the worst times he always had good heavy harness for sale, one of the few who bothered.
At that time 18 HH horses were still considered very large. He said, “Michael, America was farmed, logged, and freighted with twelve to fourteen hundred pound horses.” He thought that the quest for ever bigger horses was ridiculous, particularly for practical working and hobby models. They were too expensive to keep, too hard to harness, and did not do enough more than smaller horses to justify their use. Today, although it is hard to find a fifteen hundred pound, 16 HH or under Belgian or Percheron, one can find good Suffolks, Fjords, working type Haflingers, and crossbreds that will get the job done, and that are not worn out just from carrying their own big bodies around at the end of the day. If you have been led to believe that performance is commensurate with size, I’d suggest that you compare loads pulled at the pulling contests by light weight teams compared to the open division horses.
Think twice about “big” horses and consider the many attributes of the “big little” horse. Smaller work horses can make up for what they may lack in brute strength with stamina and hardiness. You may find that in comparison to a great little team that a pair of bruisers may turn out to be too expensive to keep without getting any more production.January 14, 2014 at 10:01 pm #82110RiverboundParticipantSpeaking as relative beginner who has been market gardening full time with horses for four years, my opinion is that the best horses for me were older, very settled, been there done that horses that knew the ropes. Cultivating is obviously a touchy operation, and your hard work in the greenhouse, on the transplanter, etc., can easily be destroyed with a little drift out of line. It’s my favorite job with the horses. But, that’s because my horses are steady, will go slow, and aren’t afraid. They’re not brain dead or anything, but they follow the leader. Mine happen to be Belgians, and I am trying out some smaller footed mules this season, but the key for me getting started was 18 year old horses who know how to be driven.
- AuthorPosts
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.