[Gabe Ayers]

BF,

I would like to find a decent 336 JD baler for 500.00 around central Appalachia, it just doesn’t exist to my knowledge. I have had this baler for about 20 years or so, never let it stay out in the weather and the wear blocks, clutch and several seal bearings are simply worn out. It has been a great machine, having baled about 3000 bales a year for us all this time and I suppose I will just suck it up and overhaul what I have and try to make do.

This repair or overhaul is somewhat of a community deal too. The fellow that is doing it and his partner are retired mechanics and farmers that need the work and will do a good job on getting it tuned in like new – so I think it may be best to invest in the old machine and my neighbors. John Deere parts are just expensive, but the service the machine provides is so important in the small window one has to capture solar energy in the form of hay and I would guess this work would bring the machine back to a condition that will last the rest of my working lifetime. My son can deal with it after that.

Right now we are stuck in a monsoon condition that is giving us inches of rain daily in the afternoon and hay is growing well. An interesting comparison when driving through the community is that the folks that put allot (or any) of chemical fertilizer on their ground now have lodged hay, laying flat on the ground and ours is still standing with the timothy in the boot and still growing in height and volume. Another good reason to stay organic…or natural fertilizer only (manure and compost).

I prefer to not manipulate the hay any more than necessary to get it dry, baled and in the barn. A tedder will save a day sometimes, but if the weather is right it isn’t necessary.

Farmers grow grass and legumes, but weather makes hay!

We usually mow it one day and let it lay for the next day and rake it once on the third, usually single windrow and bale it that afternoon. We often rake with a 256 NH side delivery on a forecart and pick it up with the hay wagon and horses. I’d love to have one of the bale pickers shown in an earlier post, but our fields are often small, sloping and irregular shaped so picking it up off the ground works. We seldom get down more than a few hundred bales at a time so it is doable without being overwhelmed. Since some of the fields are a ways from the farm we often transport back with the flat bed log truck and a gooseneck trailer. We have a hay elevator but haven’t used it in years – the years since my son got big enough to throw them up in the loft.

Hope everyone is having a good season where ever you are. So far our gardens and truck crops haven’t washed from all this rain so I am thankful for that as well as many other things…..

[Gabe Ayers]

We are hopeful to capture that little piece of summer too, but first I need about a grand for baler repairs, around tax time, after a rainy spring that has limited our work time but increased the hay even more so. (whine)

Best hay here in recent memory. I suspect there has been better, I just probably forgot. I feel blessed to have access to all of this kind of life. It is priceless, but it takes money too…

Doesn’t someone need a young big black molly mule? I’d like to swap her for a hay baler repair right about now…

[Gabe Ayers]

There is definitely a disconnect between poverty and sustainability in this country. This could be a long thread and possibly a book… maybe even a movie or series of books or something long and complex….

I have never made more than poverty level income working on the farm and in the forest of the community. The point is that having economical lifestyles and living within our means, means not much money. The entire modern world has so little value placed on personal dignity and independence that many of us who commit to this reject that way of measuring on own sense of success.

This is a very hard way to make a living, yet the only way some can live… Every person that is involved with this culture of interdependent agricultural and forest endeavors is a precious part of the best potential humans have for the future of our species on the planet in my opinion and experience.

Helping each other find our own place in the natural world is the best thing about this forum and it’s members. Thanks to all of you for being here and where you are….keep up the good work to any degree you are able.

Maybe we can expand on this thread and continue to help each other in this unique cyber community of interest.

Thank goodness there is more to life than money….meanwhile we all have to have some money so off to work we go…

[Gabe Ayers]

George,

Tong is about average for the horses we have developed or kept over the last thirty years of raising them.

You are right, we do have a little bit larger average sized Suffolk than most that I saw in NE. The bred actually has different bloodlines and one can find Suffolk horses that average 16/2-17/2 and weight 1800 pounds in shape. That is what Tong is around. He and his team mate Wedge are about 50 pounds of each other in weight. It is a mystery to me, as to why these horses vary considerably in size and color. I have bred big mares and our current sire Rudy and gotten average smaller sized horses with stars on their faces and light manes and tails with one crossing and a completely different color and sized horse from the same mating the next go around. One would think that such a pure breed would be easy to have consistency, but it is harder than one would imagine.

I like them dark red, no chrome on the face and as big as I can get them. Yet we have a gelding (his name is Chain) coming along that is almost a sorrel with a star… and he is huge, weights over a ton and is 17/3. Lots of genetic diversity within this breed and almost all of them love to work….and will pull hard.

I like them big because they can bring bigger wood out with less effort and live on about the same amount of feed. A bigger horse does eat more than a smaller horse, but that is a fair price to pay for bringing big logs out of tight places for the asking. Mostly I like that they are easy to train, live a long time and hold up to the work very well.

I think there are some bigger Suffolk’s in NE. John Hammond has a larger bloodline up there.

PS – Bill McKibben is speaking in town this morning, I am going to ask him what he thinks of modern animal power – as it relates to sustainability……
I’ll let DAP know what he says…

Thanks for the comment.

[Gabe Ayers]

This is an odd job we did with the young horse from our logging team this weekend. He still wanted to go faster back toward the barn, but he got it about about row three, which means six passes. A good operator on the three foot cultivator can do some nice work. When you rotate the ground around and put the garden on sod every 3-5 years or so, the weed control is reasonable.

[Gabe Ayers]

My grandpa always said that a ox was a mistake you could eat…… if they break a leg, cut their throat and string em up, if they aren’t tractable…. same deal…

Smart move Ixy.

Get you another one and start over younger…

[Gabe Ayers]

Having spent considerable time on the phone with Lynn and others on this issue in the recent past I am deeply committed to this project in a personal and professional way.

It is a massive undertaking. The primary point to me is that in order to have the unique status of being a Public Charity, one must be providing services that are not currently being addressed by other public entities…including the government. Being a 501c3 means that you are able to address public needs and compete with the government for revenue. HHFF has enjoyed this status for over a decade including the all important five year review process. That alone is not enough to keep the effort going. We get so little charitable giving from the public that it hardly keeps the group going. We are not good beggers or grant writers and tend to work toward supporting ourselves from the work itself and innovative approaches like the DRAFTWOOD “green certified” lumber and forest products program. It is not easy and I suspect SFC will find very high hurdles to become established as a public charity. The problems will be when these hurdles cause the runner to stumble and not finish the race.

It is a most worthy cause which in itself is no guarantee that it will succeed, maybe even the contrary.

We at HHFF have offered our participation in any way possible including sharing the law firm we used to get our 501c3 status. I am hopeful we will continue to be included in this effort. Unfortunately we don’t personally have much money to contribute and that seems to be the need at this moment.

I understand Lynn’s desire for continuity of this cultural community beyond his own biological tenure. All of us elders have that inevitable urgency before us daily.

This is a very complex issue and proposal. It will be a miracle – if it can be pulled off.

Anyone that has been as rightly suspicious of the government over the years as Lynn has been, surly also knows that no good deed goes unpunished in the public arena. What this is proposing is just too good to get by the entrenched power structure and status quo keepers without more and higher hurdles and hoops put in place to hinder any real progress.

Thanks to Erika for putting this issue on these pages for our consideration and participation.

It seems the name is a take off on The Nature Conservancy… the worlds largest “environmental organization”.

[Gabe Ayers]

Diary from someone who has actually read the 400 page report.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/5/10/729694/-USDAs-NAIS-All-Cost-No-Benefit-Report

[Gabe Ayers]

Dragging pastures with a chain harrow is a good small job that is beneficial. Some folks use the same device to drag gravel roads to knock the hump out of the middles.

A stationary treadmill would be a good addition if someone has something to do with the power generated from such a device. Cultivating row crops is a good thing to do with them too.

That road work is a good thing to do too, if you have the time.

Maybe some other folks will have ideas. I understand having to get it done with the tractors though, since we often end up in the same situation, because of the same weather related issues. I often just get discouraged that I have to many acres and to many horses when that happens, but it boils down to to many expenses to address with animal power alone in all settings. Need to scale things to appropriate sizes…. (like Carl and others). But we do keep them in the woods all the time so at least that work is always there.

[Gabe Ayers]

Ixy,

Although I am an eccentric Professional Bull Riding fan, I have been on a bovines back since I was a bored kid in the summer on the farm long ago, and as I remember it wasn’t for long….certainly not eight seconds…

But one of the fellows that works steers in our group of modern animal powered forestry rides his ox back into the woods particularly uphill regularly. I think this photo is already in the gallery, but here it is again. There is another photo of a fellow on a bovine on this site too.

This fellow – Kyle Hager will be featured on our upcoming Rural Hertiage on RFD-TV show to air in the week of July 6th. I will post an exact time when I find out exactly when it airs.

[Gabe Ayers]

Hello Ben,

Thanks for posting photos of those big trees. Those are big trees by anyone’s
standards in the eastern U.S.

I would submit that from looking at the photos that the tree your wife is standing beside is hollow or rotten on the inside. There are indicators of decline visible on the exterior that suggest this internal condition. Not that I am suggesting you cut them down, but am pointing out the indicators of decline.

Of course the entire tree should be observed to make an assessment of it’s health and trees have culture value to landowners that override any silvicultural consideration. It was just interesting that the system we use to determine which trees are ripe for harvesting as the “worst first” would include the frost cracks and indicators of decline visible on this individual.

You can read about the “nature’s tree marking paint” indicators of decline on our web site. It is a system of identifying decline in vigor, health and economic gainful conditions in individual trees that fall in three categories –
damaged – diseased – and inferior, low value species. There are about 16 visible indicators of decline that we use and this list grows based upon experiential
knowledge revealed through harvesting trees based upon observations by the harvester. This system may be customized to each region and forested condition.

I think the main point is that if a tree is rotting from the inside faster than it is growing on the outside it may be time to “cash it in” or if it is seen as a stock in a stock portfolio to sell it before it loses more value. When a tree is mature and growing slowly anyway, it doesn’t take much rot to be losing value faster than gaining volume. This approach makes the forest landowner and “inside trader” so to speak in a single tree selection scenario.

Thanks for sharing those photos, we have a few big ones on most sites too and the healthy ones stay there when we control the choice or when the landowner expresses a cultural value to them for their own reasons.

[Gabe Ayers]

Diary from someone who has actually read the 400 page report.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/5/10/729694/-USDAs-NAIS-All-Cost-No-Benefit-Report

[Gabe Ayers]

Well I suppose from a systems view of the engineering of this work there are many ways to get the work done.

Working alone tends to be the default situation for most of us that have actually done this work for income over the years, simply because if this is what you choose to do and there is nobody to help – then you go do it alone.
There is certainly a clear sense of accomplishment in getting it done alone and may be the core ability of the services we provide. Sure is may be more dangerous in a “get help if you are hurt sense”, but the basic safety and fore thought, anticipation of action/reactions, is a part of what one will have to think about regardless of the number of human workers present. There is comfort in having that knowledge and experience. Anyone that has done it very long knows what I mean. For instance when you know how to do it alone and keep all the money you make for yourself you won’t be tempted to have other folks around just for the company. Just like with the animals there has to be a leader and the one that has and can do all of it alone – is that natural leader.

Then there is the expanded system that includes more than one human operator. We tend to think that there is an efficiency related to having as many folks in the woods as we do animals. The most common crew is a timber cutter and a teamster. An experienced two person crew can be a situation of one plus one equals three.

There is no greater phrase in this work than “site specific”. This means so much. Potential silviculture, soil, slope, history, skid distance, inventory available, landowner attitude, on and on. Nothing is more important than the “site specific” characteristics. This is why you walk the site before taking on the job – assess these site specific considerations. This is also the best opportunity for landowner education.

Going out alone to take on serious logging should only be done by the experienced practitioner. Please don’t try this at home alone.
If you are not experienced, that is an easy condition to correct, just simply go find someone that is doing it and offer to help in exchange for learning. If you live in the central Appalachians, contact HHFF.

Another aspect of this work is that it is more fun when done with someone else. Enjoying what you do is important. That becomes an “opportunity cost” that everyone will have to assess on their own. I tend to be on the extrovert side of the personality isle also and like being with other folks that have interests in common. It is usual that the coolest stuff happens when nobody else is around, so having someone else there gives you someone to laugh with and to grow the experience base beyond one individual. It gives the anthropological culture a continuity only available in a social setting.

One instance comes to mind. Once we were working at the top of a cove where the wood had to come up hill and while hooking to a log I just happen to be watching the timber feller working several hundred feet down hill and across the cove cutting a big white oak that was obviously in decline and probably hollow. It was hollow and when it hit the ground the chainsaw operator (after following the prescribed safety techniques) began to buck the hollow part off to get to the salable wood. This was just normal work, the same procedure every time those conditions exist. As each section was removed to get the log to being no more than 1/3 rotten the chunks would roll down the cove into the hollow. Nothing unusual just normal work where the pieces were released from the up hill side and refinement of the material was occurring. Then just as one piece rolls away and the feller withdraws the saw and reaches to attach the log tape – a big coon came scurrying out of the hollow log and jumps up on the remaining stem and scampers up the log and off into the next holler…. This of course all took place in about 15/30 seconds and I wish everyone could have seen the reaction by this big brawny lumberjack dude when the fuzzy coon revealed himself unexpectedly…he let out a whoop and did a back up the hillside that was about as instant and entertaining as anything I have ever seen. I laughed so hard I had to set down for a spell. Now that just would not have been as funny alone….or even possible.

For creations sake folks, don’t work in the woods alone if you don’t have lots of experience. For all of you old hands out there, keep sharing what you know when you can afford to, your cultural skills are precious, valuable and priceless.

It is part of the HHFF mission, goals and objectives to facilitate learning these skills and ethics as it relates to the public good.

I suspect it is only a matter of time before L. Saunders gets back in the woods….

[Gabe Ayers]

I just wanted to add that the Fisher style logging arch is lower or shorter than the Forest Manufacturing type arch. This lower height definitely makes a difference in the amount of effort required to get on and off the thing 50 times a day. It is no higher or taller than the walking beam that Jim uses.

Of course I think I had mentioned earlier that the higher style arches with the guard in the front do come with adjustable legs. Charlie Fisher invented this thing after about thirty years of experimentation. It works. The ones we are currently using are about twenty years old and have had the slot bar replaced at least once each, mostly because the slots wear out, and the bus seats get torn up with turnovers and time outside, but the basic frame is the same as the original one copied from the one I bought from Charlie when I apprenticed with him.

Donn, you are on with the log arch rodeo judge volunteering job…..
I am not sure how much that says about your sanity…but you got the job…
because when you get about a dozen serious horseloggers together at one place it may even go beyond “Rodeo”…. it can become a logathon or log derby, skidaganza, who knows, maybe we can make up a new name for such and event….

We will try to put something together for one of our exclusive logging events, like our annual Biological Woodsmen’s Week gathering.

This is all an interesting thread for me personally, because historically I have been employed to announce the logging portion of the Horse Progress Days event in Ohio and Pa. I have to admit there were several devices displayed that I wouldn’t have hauled home if I had been driving an empty truck. They may have practical application in some settings, but certainly not in others.

Another point is that it has to be affordable, meaning cheap – in most cases and as this thread started out, able to be fabricated locally, often with recycled materials. That is what many of the BWM use…again by necessity not choice.

[Gabe Ayers]

I don’t know any other way to learn – other than hands on Bob. We may talk and write about it but that feeling you are describing happened in the flesh not on the computer screen of magazine page or video.

It is a dance with animals, but like all touch dancing – one leads the other follows.

What do you think Jen?

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