[Gabe Ayers]

I suppose I could add some thoughts to this thread. The Fisher style log arch is a very simple device. It has no moving parts and provides front end suspension of all size logs including logs higher than the hitch bar and wider than the wheels it that is necessary. It doesn’t happen often because we simply don’t have that many big logs, usually, but it can do those size pieces of wood too.

The hitch point or where the double tree is attached is lower than the slot bar by a few inches. I think the point is that the frame is arranged so that the slot bar is in the front of the centerline of the axles and thereby put a certain amount of upward pressure on the tongue when loaded. I have thought of it as a rolling wedge or lever and as long as the animals keep the power applied to the hitch point and the load moving forward, front end suspension of the log will occur. The cantilever of the load being carried in front of the centerline wants the arch tongue to rise (around 250 bd.ft. hardwood) and if not enough power is applied it will rise. But the point of draft from the horses shoulders is still higher than the slot bar on average size draft horses (1600 lbs., 15/2 + HH). So they are lifting somewhat but at the same time are pulling the rolling lever against the resistance of the load or log and providing front end suspension of the log. I have never seen Les’s arch and the relationship between the slot bar and centerline of the axles, but suspect it does the same thing where the lift of the draft keeps the tongue from rising? I know that device works just as surely as Carl Russel knows someone with a self loader that will come to his landing to haul his logs.

There is a certain increase in tongue weight on this log arch, particularly when empty (which is half the time) so we have switched to the D-ring to deal with that weight without wearing on the animals to much. There is definitely an issue of the operator having to climb off and on this device multiple times daily (upwards of 50 times daily), which is an effort born by the operator. There is the occasional turn over that makes being that high off the ground a longer distance to be back on the ground. This turnover can be limited with experience and observation of certain rules, like don’t get on the arch until the log is precisely hitched and certainly never when using a long chain to extract a piece from somewhere one doesn’t want to put the arch (in a brush pile, laps, debris, ditch, gully, etc)

Riding this log arch becomes a skill that requires excellent balance and a certain level of control on the animals to keep the pace controlled and safe.
(Line pressure/bit contact Jen)

My primary concern and hope is that more people work in the woods with animal power and that the work leads to a better understanding of the ecological entity that the entire forest is and uses a sensitive method of extraction to protect, preserve and enhance the forested ecosystem through
a natural form of common sense, soft science and silviculture.

I really don’t think most folks understand the cantilever aspect of the Fisher style arch. It is different than the Forest Manufacturing Arch, through simplicity and rugged design that includes no moving parts (other than the wheels rolling). The other taller arches usually have the cantilever in the leg attachment point and also put the load forward. The taller arches turn over easier and are harder to get on and off. The quick release slot bar wears out faster than the stationary type. A more recent design of the Forest Manufacturing Arch offered by Farmer Brown has adjustable legs that allow the height to be lowered to accommodate different sized horses and makes getting on and off a little easier. One may be bought without the quick release slot bar if desired. That adjustment can be made with different sized tires on the Fisher arch or just built custom for your animal height from the beginning.

I prefer to ride the arch and not walk beside it. It is only slightly less dangerous that ground skidding. Ground skidding definitely still has a place in animal powered extraction, but not a choice I make if avoidable. Although in reality all our horses are started working in the woods by ground skidding, just to let the work in the woods against resistance and have objects moving along with them in that setting. But as soon as we get the used to that experience we put them on the arch….my old legs are better at balancing during the ride than walking through the forest with the horse.

Another note on the log arch as an entertainment for the children by riding while skidding. I don’t recommend this at all. This (any arch) is a hard device to ride for an experienced operator and not a place for the kids to ride except maybe coming and going to the harvesting site, but not in the woods itself. Just the slightest mistake can put a tire over a high obstacle, run up a sapling or into a hole and throw anyone off, particularly a child. I threw my kid off in a rock pile once when he was very young and he never rode it again until he was big enough to drive the horses himself. Be careful taking the children into the woods with you. Carl has the right idea, give them a chance to observe from a safe distance, not be in a dangerous situation.
Let them pick up debris out of the skid trail and prepare a turn around for the next twitch or skid or leave a choker chain with them to prepare the next log for skidding.

This is work, not play.

What a great discussion, particularly given the reality of the many years I have spent working in the woods alone and didn’t have anyone to talk about this stuff with….

Farmer Brown has suggested having a log arch rodeo to test all the arches against one another in various settings….let’s do it sometime….. The biggest challenge to that idea is where in the world would we find a judge that knows enough about and doesn’t have an specific arch in the contest???

[Gabe Ayers]

I suppose I could add some thoughts to this thread. The Fisher style log arch is a very simple device. It has no moving parts and provides front end suspension of all size logs including logs higher than the hitch bar and wider than the wheels it that is necessary. It doesn’t happen often because we simply don’t have that many big logs, usually, but it can do those size pieces of wood too.

The hitch point or where the double tree is attached is lower than the slot bar by a few inches. I think the point is that the frame is arranged so that the slot bar is in the front of the centerline of the axles and thereby put a certain amount of upward pressure on the tongue when loaded. I have thought of it as a rolling wedge or lever and as long as the animals keep the power applied to the hitch point and the load moving forward, front end suspension of the log will occur. The cantilever of the load being carried in front of the centerline wants the arch tongue to rise (around 250 bd.ft. hardwood) and if not enough power is applied it will rise. But the point of draft from the horses shoulders is still higher than the slot bar on average size draft horses (1600 lbs., 15/2 + HH). So they are lifting somewhat but at the same time are pulling the rolling lever against the resistance of the load or log and providing front end suspension of the log. I have never seen Les’s arch and the relationship between the slot bar and centerline of the axles, but suspect it does the same thing where the lift of the draft keeps the tongue from rising? I know that device works just as surely as Carl Russel knows someone with a self loader that will come to his landing to haul his logs.

There is a certain increase in tongue weight on this log arch, particularly when empty (which is half the time) so we have switched to the D-ring to deal with that weight without wearing on the animals to much. There is definitely an issue of the operator having to climb off and on this device multiple times daily (upwards of 50 times daily), which is an effort born by the operator. There is the occasional turn over that makes being that high off the ground a longer distance to be back on the ground. This turnover can be limited with experience and observation of certain rules, like don’t get on the arch until the log is precisely hitched and certainly never when using a long chain to extract a piece from somewhere one doesn’t want to put the arch (in a brush pile, laps, debris, ditch, gully, etc)

Riding this log arch becomes a skill that requires excellent balance and a certain level of control on the animals to keep the pace controlled and safe.
(Line pressure/bit contact Jen)

My primary concern and hope is that more people work in the woods with animal power and that the work leads to a better understanding of the ecological entity that the entire forest is and uses a sensitive method of extraction to protect, preserve and enhance the forested ecosystem through
a natural form of common sense, soft science and silviculture.

I really don’t think most folks understand the cantilever aspect of the Fisher style arch. It is different than the Forest Manufacturing Arch, through simplicity and rugged design that includes no moving parts (other than the wheels rolling). The other taller arches usually have the cantilever in the leg attachment point and also put the load forward. The taller arches turn over easier and are harder to get on and off. The quick release slot bar wears out faster than the stationary type. A more recent design of the Forest Manufacturing Arch offered by Farmer Brown has adjustable legs that allow the height to be lowered to accommodate different sized horses and makes getting on and off a little easier. One may be bought without the quick release slot bar if desired. That adjustment can be made with different sized tires on the Fisher arch or just built custom for your animal height from the beginning.

I prefer to ride the arch and not walk beside it. It is only slightly less dangerous that ground skidding. Ground skidding definitely still has a place in animal powered extraction, but not a choice I make if avoidable. Although in reality all our horses are started working in the woods by ground skidding, just to let the work in the woods against resistance and have objects moving along with them in that setting. But as soon as we get the used to that experience we put them on the arch….my old legs are better at balancing during the ride than walking through the forest with the horse.

Another note on the log arch as an entertainment for the children by riding while skidding. I don’t recommend this at all. This (any arch) is a hard device to ride for an experienced operator and not a place for the kids to ride except maybe coming and going to the harvesting site, but not in the woods itself. Just the slightest mistake can put a tire over a high obstacle, run up a sapling or into a hole and throw anyone off, particularly a child. I threw my kid off in a rock pile once when he was very young and he never rode it again until he was big enough to drive the horses himself. Be careful taking the children into the woods with you. Carl has the right idea, give them a chance to observe from a safe distance, not be in a dangerous situation.
Let them pick up debris out of the skid trail and prepare a turn around for the next twitch or skid or leave a choker chain with them to prepare the next log for skidding.

This is work, not play.

What a great discussion, particularly given the reality of the many years I have spent working in the woods alone and didn’t have anyone to talk about this stuff with….

Farmer Brown has suggested having a log arch rodeo to test all the arches against one another in various settings….let’s do it sometime….. The biggest challenge to that idea is where in the world would we find a judge that knows enough about and doesn’t have an specific arch in the contest???

How about a discussion next, on the use of cable and pulleys to get big wood out of hard places?

[Gabe Ayers]

As much as all of us want our independence to be the most important aspect of our lifestyle (and it really is) we all have to deal with the “deciders” that represent our interests in making public policy.

This is why I would suggest we have a political activism subject. For instance, at the moment there is more movement from the government on the NAIS issue and I am not sure where to post it in order to have our community respond to have our voices heard or at least offer our opinions.

Where is the best place to post this kind of government information?

[Gabe Ayers]

Tayhook,

Attached is a sample contract that is a variation of what we use when we have to have a contract. You may use it with appropriate changes to your situation.

Let me know if you have any questions or thoughts.

Good Luck,

Jason Rutledge

[Gabe Ayers]

Hey Mark,

I enjoyed your website, thanks for posting that. I noticed your doubletree on the Pioneer with the skidding attachment on it had been tweaked a bit. Maybe those little red horses need a little bit stouter evener on that piece.

Looking good man, keep up the good work.

[Gabe Ayers]

Tayhook,

Somehow it just doesn’t make sense that in these times of economic downturn that small fabricators are not interested in a project to make some money fabricating a device from a terrific set of blue prints….they must have plenty of work to not take on a project this simple and clear.

There will be several of these models for sale at the Southern Draft Animal Days event in September in Tennessee.

We have a spare one here that the fellow wants $300.00 for. It is for a team but one could fabricate shafts for a single horse.

There are all sorts of versions of devices that provide front end suspension and lessen the impact on forest soil and increase the capacity of the draft animal.

Good Luck with finding or having one made for your use. Keep shopping there are folks around that could make one in an afternoon if they would take the project on. Most of ours are made at farm shops by the people that actually use them.

Also Forest Manufacturing and Farmer Brown (http://www.farmerbrownsplowshop.com) (I think) sell them all the time. Theirs has the quick drop chain slot bar that makes it real easy to get the log off the choker chain at the landing.

[Gabe Ayers]

Again Carl and I have similar situations. I also am a forester in Virginia and provide much more than contract harvesting services.

I agree that the point of the contract is to be sure the landowner understands what is going to happen. The pay scale is probably of some interest to most landowners and that is where our contract is unique.

I also could post/attach a word version of ours if anyone is interested. Like Carl’s it is a conglomeration of other contracts and some wording of our own. I say ours because most of the guys in the Healing Harvest Forestry Coalition use a version of one.

If one is negligent and causes injury to anyone or damage to any property you may get sued, but the approach based on honesty, open communication through the contract and doing what you say you are going to do – will work.

We have a contract if the landowner asks for one and also understand what the process is about from the beginning. Spending time with the landowner explaining the work first usually takes care of all that and sometimes they want a contract too. If so we give them one, if we think they are honest and understand what we are doing then we don’t bother.

Luke is also right about being a long time proven practitioner, with a list of references all over the state – it helps to get more work than you can do. This is good because one may chose where one wants to work for multiple reason’s.

But just like the existing condition of the forest, the greatest influence is the human aspect.

If you work with good people that have good woods, you will do OK.

We still have the liability clause, and have all apprentices sign similar waviers and use the equine liability notice on our property too.

I agree though, anyone that thinks more of their dogs than they do my horses or their woods, probably isn’t going to be the best client.

All this information is my personal information and not an official position of HHFF.

This could be a long thread….

[Gabe Ayers]

Disclaimer, make your own decisions about all this business…but –

I agree with Carl’s perception and have had the same experiences over the last thirty years. We include a “hold harmless” clause for the landowner’s sake when we deal with a landowner that insist on a contract or management agreement. If this doesn’t satisfy them we have a one word answer – “next”!

In Va. 78% of all logging is a matter of a logger and landowner shaking hands, and the work starts. No forester involved, no insurance payments, no contracts.

This is not entirely a good thing because it usually leads to poor management activities or high grading and clear cutting. We don’t do either one of those silvicultural practices and our work is designed and intended to be restorative from the onset, with that being the objective first and income for the landowner and practitioner second.

There is a disconnect between all these “cost” of operation that contribute to the pressure to be harder on the natural resource or more extractive to pay for these extra cost. The greater the cost of operation, particularly cost beyond the actual cost of doing the work has to be paid somehow and in the case of logging it will have to come from the resource base, forest or woods. In other words any extra cost make it harder to be sustainable in your attempts for man to age the forest.

[Gabe Ayers]

Well, I know this isn’t a big deal, but we put our old garden into the fallow part of it’s rotation yesterday, just in front of the rain. Having hauled literally tons of food out of this garden, there was something special about planting it into oats, grass and legumes for a few years resting time. It now becomes part of the stallions paddock again (mid season) and will one day be the main garden again. It was just really hard to give it up as a convenient garden spot between the house and barn, which keeps the deer out of it mostly, but this is what’s needed to exhaust the weed seeds on the surface and give it time to build itself back up as sod.

Now it is on to working the new garden spot, that was once the old spot and into the fields for reseeding and some commercial veggies too.

Hope everyone is finding the seed they need and the energy and inspiration to plant plenty this spring.

[Gabe Ayers]

Healing Harvest Forest Foundation is supporting the Small Farms Conservancy idea as much as possible or as much as we know how.

Our support is personal as a life time subscriber since 1975-6 and as a member of the community of interest.

Since we have been a 501c3 for over a decade we have supported the development of this new concept through referrals to our law firm that helped us get started in this rare position and status of being a Public Charity.
That in itself is a complicated condition as a member of society and is worthy of complete threads of it’s own, but at the same time can bring strong resistance for political reasons.

I have not contributed to the magazine as much as I would like personally, but support Lynn and his family completely. One of the primary reasons for writing for the other magazines is the coverage area of SFJ is stronger in the west, which is not our primary service area. That is a lame excuse though and I should have been writing more for Lynn over the years and continue to promise to do this, yet have little time left after actually doing the work, to actually write about it.

Lynn is an incredible artist, but he is also a great philosopher and I enjoy his thinking, but must admit skipping over the editorials for years. For me it is a matter of what I call the “awareness blues”. Most of us already know enough bad stuff about modern life that we just don’t want to know much more. Rather than being distracted by all the bad news, many chose to go out into their communities, farms and woods and do something about what they see as being a better way. It is never the easy way, duh! Sharing what is important personally is important publicly and Miller has suffered much disdain and jealously over the years from his willingness to be a public figure.

Lynn is an icon in this community of interest and we are all lucky to have his contributions to the culture.

He is reckoning with his own mortality and trying to figure out how to keep the cultural entity that SFJ is – going in his absence. The members of this board that are over 60 know exactly what he is dealing with. There is a point where ones own ability to do is recognized as limited and the desire to contribute to the future in a positive way demands creativeness beyond normal thinking. It certainly can lead to the inspiration to teach young people the skills and ethics of independent personal actions and thinking.

We are dedicated SFJ supporters and Lynn Miller fans. He has earned that through the years of publishing this magazine and we hope this latest venture ripens to nourish our culture and provides seeds for future growth.

Free thinking should be protected in the land of the free. To question authority serves to refine the process, empower our society and guarantee individual freedom. I personally admire and respect anyone with that approach publicly or privately.

[Gabe Ayers]

Geoff,

I don’t know. We just spent 5 more dollars a month to have DVR capacity and we have the Rural Heritage series set to record, so we will watch it and see.

We have completed the second in the series and sent it to Joe Mischka and think it is a good one too. Joe says he will tell me when it is to air. I will record this one and see if it is the original or first in the series.

The problem is getting someone with the capacity to edit the film we collect into a succinct presentation.

If this is the first segment, the highlights are voice controlled horses, “Nature’s Tree Marking Paint” – worst first single tree selection silviculture and the resulting restorative forestry and an interview with Chad Vogel who is now a long term practitioner showcasing the first pair of Suffolk horses he bred, raised, trained and now works in the woods and on the farm.

Since this time Chad has moved to work in NY State with Mark and Kristin who are members of DAP.

Hope you all get to see it. Thanks so much for alerting us about it, we appreciate it.

Sincerely,

[Gabe Ayers]

anthropomorphize – an.thro.po.mor.phize – to ascribe human form or attributes to an animal, plant or material object.

I think this may be a problem that is expressed by the few folks in this country that work animals for a living every day. They are beast of burden and not humans.

I think that kind of thinking about working animals or any animals is a gateway to thinking like PETA people do about all animals.

Keeping the utilitarian perspective about these animals is important. They are kept – to help humans do things in an efficient way particularly in regard to the use of fossil fuel and outside or off the farm inputs. They provide a biological power source that is far more about independence than friendship with the actual animals.

Yet I can relate to the phrase “animal husbandry” as real stockmen are indeed married to their animals in a nurturing, protecting and providing for their needs sense.

There is surly a certain affection held for work animals by the folks that work their animals full time, but a serious one not a “play” or “casual” relationship.
They are married to them, not just dating. In this context the leader is very clear and is a safer experience within that definition.

I certainly “love” my horses, some more than others and each has it’s own personality, but the term used by some trainers is “horsanality”, which keeps it differentiated from being a human being.

Keeping all this in mind when training and working your animals is appropriate.
The affection that the general public has for animals is important to introduce interested folks into this culture of utilitarian workstock.

But one would like/need to mention that if you stand to close and the animal moves it may step right on your foot and not even know it….. and that they are prey animals and their instinct to flee when frightened will never disappear nor would a real horseman want it to completely disappear.

Great discussions on this board, unlike any other anywhere on the net that I have found.

That plow is a Pioneer Sulky left hand turn plow with a 12″ bottom. I just got some new points from Pioneer and plan to change them from a modified one the fellow I got it from had put on it. It is a rugged piece of equipment that has all modern steel components that are readily available. I think the I & J and White Horse plow are similar but some say lighter and easier to move around by horses or humans.

The best color on any work animal is sweat. I just like the ones that are very willing to pull hard given proper equipment and clear signals and that is a characteristic of this breed in particular. It comes from years of selection base on behavior and complemented by confirmation.

[Gabe Ayers]

Well if more deadly experiences reinforces the insistence of getting professional training then here are a couple more:

I had a great blacksmith a few years back. Meaning this fellow could hot shoe a draft horse, make ornamental metal work that was sculpture and always rode horses in all sorts of settings in his spare time. He was cutting a tree in his front yard one Saturday afternoon and it fell on him and killed him.
He left a teenage soon too. Stunning…. I would have gone down and cut Bill’s tree for him a thousand times rather than have that happen to a good, hard working man. But he just thought he knew what he was doing… that is why folks need to learn a professional technique. This technique is not one guys idea of how to do something, this is a proven, time tested and widely accepted correct way to do this dangerous work and still doesn’t guarantee absolute safety….

In Virginia we lose about 13-15 people in the logging industry annually. Last year 9 of them were hand felling timber…… not to be an alarmist about this – but if these warnings don’t get your attention about the seriousness of running a chainsaw….then I don’t know what else to write….

[Gabe Ayers]

What a great thread, such common sense considerations by all involved. I am adding this comment to try and post a photo of a hard pair of logging horses that have been put on the sulky plow for the first time this past weekend.

Of course I had to be hard headed myself and put the Pioneer Plow and stout horses into a twenty five year paddock and plow it uphill…. it worked but it was really work. This pulled about like 7000 pounds in a flat bottom sled in a gravel parking lot….

I guess we will put some potatoes and onions in this ground for fall storage veggies sold through out little network here in the mountains and then back into some grass for continuing the paddock needs which we always have on the place.

Hope it will post and isn’t to big as an attachment.

[Gabe Ayers]

There is a place for all sorts of working animals regardless of training methods.

For those who really work their animals for a living it is a different world than that of a hobby, adventure or experimental “relationship”.

I think there may be some clear differences between working mules and working horses. I remember one thing Jack said was never to pet a mule because you would have to whoop him twice for every time you petted him. I am not sure any one statement is purely true.

But I do know that I appreciate everyone’s involvement with working animals on any level.

We are lucky to have folks like Ronnie Tucker in our midst, he is an animal powered practitioner of proven success. Hopefully we will have more with such skills and success in the future.

We are lucky to have all of the folks interested in animal that are here.

Thank you all for what you are doing.

[Author]

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