[Gabe Ayers]

Yep, I was alerted to the SAF head em off in the canyon deal a few years back when Virginia lawmakers came up with a forester titling act, which outlawed calling oneself a forester or consulting forester without the same SAF approved undergrad baloney. Fortunately the alert (by a cool state forester) allowed me to use the grandfathering clause and submit an essay and submit to an interview which put me on a list beyond the SAF whack’em and stack’em list.

It is all aimed at development of laws that one day will only allow a tree to be cut when a “forester” declares it is appropriate…. Private property rights states don’t like that sort of cultural subversion, so to speak. This is not conspiracy theory paranoia, this is a historical fact as I experienced it.

This approach is not over, and will be a continued effort by the dominant paradigm. Last year for instance the DOF in NC tried to past a law that stated that even aged management was the only scientifically proven silvicultural treatment and was therefore the only practice acceptable for any public support of any kind….. Now that is industry corruption of the true public interest, which may be better protected by private property rights than battling industry controlled educational systems…. at least that is how we are experiencing it from out in the woods in Virginia.

Now, Wisconsin – I have lost some faith in. I used to think Madison was cool place and an area of open minds…. Then they arrest Amish for not registering their farms with NAIS even though it isn’t mandated federally… yet. And they are buying into the channelizing of credentials through group that behaves like an industry front organization like SAF.

The counter group to SAF is the Forest Guild, but they are very weak comparatively and have enough trouble keeping themselves going as a 501c3.

But frankly Mr. Saunders, I wish you were in Virginia, there is plenty of woods work in good quality forest, but the market is indeed weak today….which is another discussion in itself. Maybe over production could be a consideration, but probably not by SAF….

Enough venting, glad you are here (DAP) and hanging on to a connection with the woods.

I hope you don’t have to many student loans to repay…
We have one fellow in our group that has his masters from Duke and he will be paying for all of it for may years to come. He also got his undergrad from a non- SAF approved school… but is a practicing forester and a ground level practitioner of restorative forestry also.

Thanks for posting, stay in touch with the site and let us know what you think about whatever you see here or anywhere….

[Gabe Ayers]

Hey Saunders,

Good to see you back on the site here. Are you still pursuing your masters in Forestry and NRM?

I just responded to a online recommendation for a former apprentice that is going back to forestry school at Va. Tech for his master’s. He want to focus on the alien invasive botanical problem in the forest here. If accepted we will have two in the grad program and we have one just accepted in the third year forestry program under graduate. There are a certain number of professors there that accept and support these environmentally sensitive students. Apparently they are able to include these students despite the industrial dominant paradigm folks entrenched there.

On felling a leaning tree. We often plunge the heart through the hinge as the third cut, which would make it a five cut method to be make sure the hinge doesn’t break off as this tree did. This makes it a door hinge and not a piano hinge. We also, when making the third cut in the normal four cut method will slide the saw bar from the bottom of the open face to cut the sap wood to prevent it from ripping a strip of wood up the log, which you mention. This is particularly effective on white oak, which is real tough in that way. Since these leaning trees are going that way anyway it is good to get them down without causing any manufacturing defects by the felling operation.

It seems the most important thing about this thread is the introduction of a safe skilled timber felling course being available to folks in most parts of the country, which will make their work more fun…. and that is why most of us do this work – we enjoy it…

Thanks for posting man.

[Gabe Ayers]

Blair,

Most of the modern western world is short on skilled animal power practitioners.

I can give you this fellows contact information through a private email message. He and his family live in the Appalachian Mountains of Southwestern Virginia. My address is below.

DAP is no different than any other site on the internet – in that some folks just don’t trust or like the internet…or computers. So I will respect his position and give the contact information directly.

Break up, that’s a terminal condition of a relationship down here…no just kidding. I understand the frost is coming out of the ground in the far north and the land looses all sense of texture, and we have been through that about a month ago here. We will be working next week, we have to get our trailer repaired and some temporary fence on our new site, but we are moving wood on some gentle land now.

You are welcome to visit anytime – but I have to make a disclaimer here. We (my family operation) won’t work on ground as steep as a cow’s face, if there is anyway we can avoid it. Lots of reasons:

Not enough money in it
to hard
to dangerous
usually highly sensitive to erosion
Often thin soil and resulting low quality material present

and THE BIGGEST REASON is – we are determined to access the very best sites…because that is where the most public good can be done quickly….for all the stakeholders in the biological planet family. Only the best forested sites have enough value, to have a chance of paying for the services for a restorative type harvesting. This means having a chance to make a living wage from what the forest has to give, instead of the best of what it’s got.

Those sites are not usually a mountain side in Appalachia… although some of this old mountain range has benches that are deep and flat and long deep coves that grow big heavy hardwoods capable of being over a meter DBH – healthily to a certain point of maturation.

So when there are big ones up there – that have peaked and maybe are going backward in health and vigor, possibly even rotting faster than growing, there are folks here that know how to go up there and get them with animal power.

But that is here in Appalachia, I am not sure of and can only imagine the vast difference between here and near the equator.

None of these reasons preclude you from having a very sensitive and if done right – sustainable alternative for logging in the rain forest.

If this practice provides or could provide proven viable alternatives to clear cutting, oil drilling, mining and/or turning into marginal pasture, coffee, coca, palm oil or anything other than the natural creator produced ecological system…? – it may be a good thing.

I suspect there is great value ($) in the rain forest wood… it is off the scale of anything temperate is worth for certain species.

Preserving the ecosystem is what it has to be about for our 501c3 non-profit public charity. Our approach is that when the ground level worker in restorative and therefore sustainable forestry can make a living wage, then actual bottom up change may occur.

I would suspect Cattle would be the best draft animal in the tropics.

We will help you if we can. Stop through on your way south.

[Gabe Ayers]

Maybe you could offer some training for native folks to do this work? We have one practitioner that is a steep ground expert that has trained several folks to work on land they call “as steep as a cow’s face”.

[Gabe Ayers]

Arrgh,

The Chronicles of the Biological Woodsmen has a pretty good felling demonstration on it done by Chad Vogel, filmed by Silas Haggerty ) – Pete’s son. It is also very amusing to me to watch this video, given the relationship those two young men have had for several years. We sell them for $20.00, but (disclaimer) it is in no way a complete training video and wasn’t intended to be such. It is a demonstration, but one can watch it over and over and get the four cut method. There are other interesting viewings on this DVD.

Chad is on the cover of the Bailey’s Forestry Supply 2009 Master Catalog out at the moment. You can get one free by calling 1-800-322-4539, tell’ them the horselogger sent you or go to http://www.baileysonline.com

We also have about a 10 minute demonstration on the next segment coming out on Rural Heritage show on RFD-TV, but I don’t know when that will air. I hope to let the DAP folks know as soon as Joe Mischka lets me know.

Do a search on GOL in Idaho and see.

I met a fellow once from Moscow, Idaho that had some horses and logged on public land a bit. His name was Larry (Lawrence) and that is all I can remember. I will look back in some of my old stuff and see. Larry was not in good health but was a great fellow and was working hard to do the right thing in the woods and trained lots of folks to work horses. Funny I can remember his face and accent, but have forgotten his last name. He and I attended a sponsored week in Washington through a group called the National Network of Forest Practitioners and presented our views to USFS folks. We were the only people there with callouses on our hands – if you know what I mean. I will find his name for you Pirate Farmer, so you can connect with him – if he is still around.

Take the time to inform yourself about chainsaw safety and skills, it will help you enjoy your work even more, and honestly we all do this because we like it, certainly not the money….

Let me know what you think through PM at the address below.

Thanks for posting Aaron. Level four is as far as I got too.

Salute,

[Gabe Ayers]

We were skidding some big logs behind the arch, (meaning around 16″ small end diameter oak and larger) when the Austrian Prof’s were there – as well as smaller hardwoods with a log train. Smaller meaning up to about 16 ” SED.

I would think some bigger mules would handle the larger logs in the hands of skilled practitioners. It is amazing what an animal can move downhill.

[Gabe Ayers]

Awesome Carl, thank you!

There are several little things about this event that will be slightly different from HPD or NEAPFD. The most important things will be those that are the same. The greatest hope is that it will become a tradition.

Maybe there will be questions?

We are all more alike than different, although definitely different accents and dialects.

[Gabe Ayers]

Howie,

Wow that is good information to know.

So you cut them into 6’6″ long blanks leaving out the heartwood. I bet that is some nice stuff. What are the other dimensions of the pieces?

I would like to supply those to anyone that wants them, but it is a big chunk to ship anywhere. I also suspect it is very cheap, since it is sold here along with poplar in the conventional mills, so it isn’t worth much, especially if you had to ship it far. If it suits your use that makes it worth something.

I think you will find it light, tough – not brittle and strong. Let me know what you think of it when you get them finished. It does have a little fuzzy curly grain hairs that stick up with a conventional planer. They will sand right away.

I don’t think good straight sound cucumber magnolia is plentiful anywhere. They do rot out from the centers or even the top down if they break or are rubbed of lightning hits them. That is a perfect salvage save harvest though. When you cut the worst first it is hard to get a lot of really good wood out of one tree. That sounds like a big old tree that has been left for a long time.

Thanks for telling me about it. I appreciate the sizes information too.

What part of Penn. are you in?

[Gabe Ayers]

I would just put a comma or “and” on the last sentence and add the words “our selves”.

The point is often made here that we shouldn’t let others define ourselves. Others definitions always reduce and marginalize us. I think that is exactly what Carl is saying and doing…

Great job on VPR Carl.

[Gabe Ayers]

Amazing networking or is this just guys gossiping? Either one is OK with me. This is a great bunch of folks that know allot of other great folks.

There are some real hands in New England.

[Gabe Ayers]

Lance,

You may have been at Sterling when Ross Morgan was the forestry professor and maybe a fellow named David Birdsall was the horseman? Ross is a great forester and old friend. Ross thinks pretty highly of David Birdsall and says he thinks he is horse logging in NY State somewhere these days. Ross and I are both charter members of a group that was once called the Progressive Forester’s Network, then the Forest Stewards Guild and now is called the Forest Guild. Great group, just hard to be a member of every group in the country, even the good ones.

Sounds like you have a neat program going on and we wish you lots of luck and are glad to have you on the site. Thanks for sharing your approach to value adding wood and using your animals to work in the forest. Glad to have you on the DAP forum. Keep up the good work.

We have had apprentices come from Sterling to serve internships with us here in Virginia and have really enjoyed them. This school does attract some original thinkers and good workers. One of our recent apprentices was a student there. We have also worked with lots of folks from Paul Smith’s College in NY State.

[Gabe Ayers]

Hey Lance,

I know it is even more of a technological challenge but can you get us some photos of your system. I am also interested in the kiln drier you are using to get this wood dry. Welcome to DAP.

Thanks,

[Gabe Ayers]

Try Pioneer Equipment

330-857-6340

[Gabe Ayers]

Hello Sir,

Here is a site someone sent me just yesterday that has information about all sorts of steep ground logging equipment. It doesn’t speak well about animal powered logging, but I don’t think they had skill practitioners to work with.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/x0622e/x0622e15.htm

I had a couple of professors from Austria come to one of our steep logging sites
a few years ago. We were just making log trains and connecting them with trail grabs and skidding off the steep faces with one horse.

Let us know what you think.

Welcome to the Draft Animal Power forum.

[Gabe Ayers]

You’re getting it.

The back (or plunge to establish the back of the hinge) cut is exactly level with the second cut. Sometimes we even drag the bar along the second cut and go right in behind the open face so we can keep it level all the way through. The wedges force the tree over along with lean or crown weight, so the cuts being matched all way through are part of how folks were graded or scored in the original training.

Since the log is bought by the small end diameter measurement, cutting low stumps is the way to make your logs a big as possible at salable log length. (We even have a country music radio station down here that has a dj called Cut Low Stump. We think he may have been an old logger…)

The conventional foresters advise cutting as low as possible because they see the best coppice regenerated spouts come off low stumps. Those stump sprouts turn out better logs with less pistol grip shapes on the butt end. All hardwoods sprout from the stumps, to my knowledge only one soft wood..redwoods.

Regeneration of the forest is another thread maybe..

The GOL educational course, (at the time I took it) was sponsored by several suppliers. So there was a reward given for the most accurate cut – after each individual cut was made. They scored the accuracy of every step and gave a piece of equipment for the winner in each phase and step. At the end the guys with the highest score total won Chainsaws, other good scores were given chains, files, personal protective gear etc. Pretty cool, gets the participants to paying close attention. Wish I could afford to teach it with those same free tool reward system.

The course cost was the best money I have ever invested in my education.

[Author]

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