[Gabe Ayers]

Here is another single horse photo.

[Gabe Ayers]

I am going to attempt to attach another single horse on our Fisher style logging arch.

[Gabe Ayers]

Novastew,

I must admit that I have never seen any data on this information. I do know that there are a few A.I. conceived horses in this country and England. Not sure if they were from frozen or fresh chilled semen. Maybe the folks at Roanoke A.I. labs can give more information about this method of breeding horses.

I have had many inquiries about A.I. breeding over the years and have never shipped a single one. Natural cover is the only way we have reproduced horses over the years.

This is why we have always had a stallion on the farm. My first Suffolk horse was a stallion in 78 and we have kept at least one since then. Given the cost of the horses it would seem appropriate to own a stallion and work him. As an old man told me once a long time ago, they are the smartest and strongest horses on the farm, why not work them and have breeding just be their part time job?

Good luck with it, Paul Birdsall is an icon in this breed and his horse is proven.

Good luck, don’t wait – they are all getting older every year. It is amazing to me how many open mares there are in this breed. Many live their entire lives and never reproduce….if that was my decision I would only own geldings.
Only around 50 are born annually and registered, so they are hardly keeping up with normal attrition. This is why they are listed on the American Livestock Conservancy as endangered and near extinct….

[Gabe Ayers]

The fellow that makes our logging arches uses spindles from the trailer supply place, but they can be bought at the farm supply place too. They are 5 lug, 4-1/2″ center to center, holes that are the common pattern for Ford and Dodge wheels. These are some of the more common sizes and are available from most junkyards. At one time that bolt pattern could be had in a 15 and 16 inch rim size that allows for an adjustment of the point of draft according to the height of your team. As long as you have good rims for whatever size spindle you have you are in business. We also weld a piece of pipe around the value stem to keep it from inevitably being knocked off in the brush.

The blueprints and complete materials list are available on our HHFF web site in a pdf file that may be downloaded for free. There are views from several angles and even a 3-D look at the device. Good luck with your woods work.

[Gabe Ayers]

Stewart, At first I misspelled your name and put a “d” on the end.
Some kind of slip from smelling to much compost fumes this week when spreading on our hay fields.

You can A.I. those mares. We have a good stallion here that may be collected and fresh semen shipped anywhere in the world. I also have two passed stallions frozen in the laboratory at the folks place that do the collection.

I worked for many years to get this passed through the American Suffolk Horse Association, and they put some many requirements of vets on both ends, blood typing, DNA and such that it cost a little more than a natural cover. But if you love them and want to keep them around when you live in an isolated region, this is a great option.

Here is how it works. We charge the price as a live cover to haul the horse to the collection lab, plus fifty dollars for fuel and a pittance for my time. Then the rest of the entire experience is a matter of business between you and Jim Crump at Roanoke A.I. Labs. They can be reached at: http://www.roanokeai.com

I will try to attach a photo our Rudy (Ridgewind Rubscent Rudra) our current sire, he is aging also… We will probably freeze his semen while he is down there next.

This photo is from the 2005 Upperville Draft Horse show when he was Grand Champion draft stallion. My youngest child helped me turn him out or get ready for the show. The best part is that this horse logged the day before and the day after this show.

In other words this is not a show horse, but will do anything we ask of him. You can notice this horse is on a loose shank in the ring. He minds me very well. He was born in the field he has been in his whole life.

There is another photo in the favorite photos on this site of him and me tilling our garden last spring.

I have frozen semen form the first Suffolk stallion I owned who was born in 1978.

Let me know what you think.

Kind Regards,

[Gabe Ayers]

@CIW 7217 wrote:

I don’t see this as something that just happened one day. Its a habit thats been developed. Without sounding mean. It isn’t something that will just go away over night
If I were in your situation I would start by slowing the way I was hitching. Harness and then leave them tied at the hitch rail while I went and did something else. Then come back later and hitch up to whatever piece of equipment and set there. Let them go to sleep. Then just pick up the line slack and ask them to walk off walk off. Not if but when they want to charge away. Stop them and let them go to sleep. Pick up your line slack and ask them to walk off. Repeat.
Harness them every day. Even when you don’t hitch them. Just let them stand and at the end of the day put them away.
I don’t see this as a mechinical problem. Its a confidence problem. And only building a new habit will correct it.
Yes, you can bit the animals heavier and band-aid the symptom but that doesn’t address the problem and often only serves to harden their mouths making the problem harder to deal with.
They need more confidence. That can only come from you, through your voice, your hands on the lines, then lots of time with their bodies collected working in a steady pace.
You may not get any work done, for a while, but you will change the habit of your horses.
Good luck

“Yes, you can bit the animals heavier and band-aid the symptom but that doesn’t address the problem and often only serves to harden their mouths making the problem harder to deal with.”

When it comes to bits I consider there being two types. Friction bits and leverage bits. There are gag bits too, but I haven’t seen those commonly used in driving horses.

I agree with the quoted statement regarding friction bits. If you go to a heavier friction bit it will cause the horses mouth to become calloused and will lead to an even harder mouthed horse. I think this is primarily because it is a single signal bit with the contact or pressure being the friction of the bit on the bar of the horses mouth. The other factor of using a friction bit is that if the horses are frightened enough to want to flee they can run away with these simple bits and there is not a man alive that can hold them.

However I don’t agree with this statement as it relates to leverage bits. This is because the lever bits offer multiple signals or pressure on the horses heads to give direction and control. The first is of course the bar or bit as a friction bit, which in our case is never allowed to become enough friction to cause callousing from that contact. The second signal is the action of the curb chain on the lever bit putting pressure on the lower jaw when the horse pushes forward through the bit. The third action is the pull down on the pole or top of the horse head in response to the leverage bit acting upon the bridle.

Most lever bits have adjustments that allow for varying degrees of pressure from the amount of leverage applied. When the lines are attached in the corner their is no leverage or minimum at most. When the lines are attached in the first slot down the lever there is moderate leverage, when the lines are attached on the bottom slot there is maximum leverage.

Many years ago when watching big hitches in Detroit I noticed that these horses were or seemed to be on the verge of running away most of the time. This is what they were looking for, but in reality they were in control from the usage of the lever bits. This experience came at about the same time many folks were having runaway horses from using the friction bits regardless of type of friction bit. When we switched to lever bits the runaways stopped. You can under most circumstance hold the horses from running away with a properly adjusted lever bit. We use the Military Show Elbow bit on the middle setting on most of our horses and some just in the corner setting when they are very responsive and soft mouthed.

It is like having an old truck with manual steering or a new truck with power steering. As I have become more aged myself the power steering is the choice that allows for sensitively driving the horses regarding pace of travel.
It can be done with nearly no line pressure and not be a situation of the horses becoming harder mouthed as with the friction style bit.

There are several styles of lever bits. Mylar makes a good driving bit. There is a Buxton Bit, a Liverpool bit and the military show elbow bit. It is not a band aid but simply an aid in giving the horses a clear simple set of signals that rewards them for coming off the bit and being responsive to the pressure regarding their rate of travel.

I have heard some old timers say you can’t drive a horse on a heavy load with the lever bits. I think that really means “they” can’t drive a horses on a
heavy load with a lever bit, because over the years we have drove our horses past many of these fellows at the pulling contest with our lever bits.
I don’t want to work horses that pull my arms off and travel at whatever pace they wish. I want them to be sensitive to the signals given and these bits allow that exchange with no damage to the horse when used sensitively.

There is another two cents worth West Va. Drafty, let me know if you want to try an elbow bit, we keep them in stock here in stainless steel or brass.

[Gabe Ayers]

This question will be best market defined by the saw mill you sell to. We just put all saw logs on a load and the mill grades them individually and sorts for their use.

There is no doubt that to get into this “business” you all should have some instruction, mentoring or training for your own safety as well as efficient operation.

[Gabe Ayers]

Having lived in England for a few years while in service I can translate that a bonnet is the hood of an auto. It might have to be an older one to have enough metal to make more than a couple of skids…

[Gabe Ayers]

The echo of footsteps in an empty barn loft are a human centered sign of spring around our place….

Barn cleaning and fertilizing our fields with compost and manure are spring flings for sure…. flinging being the operative word here….

Young horses, recently babies, now big enough to seem like with a little fitting they can wear a harness….

Migrating birds in small flocks stopping for a rest in the canopy of the high plateau woods.

Deep mud, stuck trucks, working around elements that remind of our limitations regularly…

Pregnancy in full bloom, when their bellies are wider than their butts, something is about to happen – even the soil itself suggests a new birthing.

Seed shopping in earnest, the time of looking at the pictures and pondering is over…

Pulling the chain harrow over equine toilet areas and singing the song I’m a turd buster in my head….

Have I mentioned mud, how does this stuff get in the house…oh well, the potted house plants need some fertilizer too…

Happy Spring everyone….

[Gabe Ayers]

One of the most rewarding aspects of doing this kind of work is what we call the “human dignity dividend” or feeling good about what you are doing. For some that alone is priceless…. However making a living and generating some income is reality and everyone has there own way of doing that as it reflects their level of income needed. There are just about as many ways to do it as there are folks doing it.

You may read the thread about “Log Delivered Markets Disappearing”. This conversation tends to address the current economic reality most folks face in the forest products industry nation wide today. Finding your place within this current economic situation will be harder than it was even six months ago.

A common observation at this moment is many conventional mills closing and conventional loggers parking or selling their equipment and looking for wage jobs.

So far we haven’t had to do that and again many here (DAP) are determined to not quit working their horses despite the lower returns for goods produced or services provided.

What part of the country are you working in? Do you have your own work horses yet? I may have missed this information in earlier posts?

There is no doubt that being familiar with the markets for forest products in important and localized or regionally specific.

One may be able to work by the hour and still have some autonomy over what you actually do when providing services. Most long term successful folks employ what is called a “flexible adaptive management style”, meaning they will do all sorts of different things besides selling logs into the commodity defined markets. There is information about those different services on this site too.

Glad you are still interested despite the less than optimistic forecast and reality of working in natural resource management today. Another commonality of this group is that most like hard work….which is not suitable for everyone…

This group will help you if they can and seem to be very honest in sharing their experiences.

I don’t think anyone on here pretends to have “the answer” but many seem to have “an answer” for their own choice of how to work their animals and make a living from their efforts. Many folks have a diversified household income picture with one of the family members working a regular job to keep the insurance and steady income as part of keeping the family living expenses going.

Good that you are doing this research prior to jumping into it blindly.

[Gabe Ayers]

I would consider a different bit off the bat to see if I could get their attention about the pace they were traveling or wanting to travel. How do you have them bitted, what kind of bits are you using?

All horses, but particularly younger ones are fresh, full of piss and vinegar when they first come out of the barn or are hooked, especially if they aren’t worked everyday for a few hours of good effort.

I remember these chestnut mares in the photos you sent. Look pretty game to me, athletic willing for sure. Funny how two sisters would have such different gaits. I bet after you do get them tired they tend to go together better, but the issue is one being much faster from the beginning? With a young pair getting them good and tired, may take quite a while and lots of loaded steps.

Just some thoughts about it, maybe others will have some comments and suggestions.

[Gabe Ayers]

Tayhook,

I just posted a response to your same question on the RH front porch. These are great questions and I suspect you will get good response here.

I have a morning appointment and will get back here to see what I can offer.

Since you posted the question under Sustainable Forestry, then you are on the right search path, because it is more about sustainable forestry than anything else in our experience.

On the other page the address of our web site was offered and is here too.

We look forward to helping you based on the experience we have. More later.

Welcome to DAP

[Gabe Ayers]

Does anyone else here at DAP have any advice for Larry?

Maybe we need a subject on animal health, training, harness, etc…

Of course Carl already had plenty to do an this forum is still the best draft animal one out here….

[Gabe Ayers]

Hey Larry,

I think your post was bumped by other threads – as this is not a group that will ignore your request for comments. So maybe this will bring it back to the top for more discussion.

First it seems you are somewhat inexperienced, but doing very well with these young horses.

Horses are individuals and some mature sooner than others. Some gain size, height, girth, bone, joints and muscle quicker than others. American blonde Belgians get bigger quicker than Suffolks for instance. I have seen Suffolk horses that didn’t gain full size until 9 years old, while growing, while working steadily from about 4-5 years old. I have seen Belgian horses peek out at 5 years old. But there is allot of experience on this board and other may have more to contribute to your questions.

If they were mine, I would be particularly careful about working them on a road of any kind. Hardtop or gravel roads are very unforgiving and the concussion of their feet/joints and limbs is what will hurt their unset joints. I know it is hard to not enjoy working a young willing pair. But I would keep their training steps on sod or ground – not the road.

We have allot of folks down south that “wagon train” or take their horses for long rides through the countryside and camp out at various farms and locations along the route. Some really enjoy this and have allot of fun. But what I have also seen is that allot of young horses are driven many miles over the road and never get over it. That is where the caution about driving over the road comes from for me. These horses are pretty much hobbies for the owners and they buy them young, start them young and wear them out young. It is the joint issue and these horses never last into their twenties working hard after they mature. They become stiff and uncomfortable moving earlier than horses that are allowed to completely mature before working hard, which includes miles on the road.

Hope this helps you. It is good to hear of young horses working well for someone. It is also wise of you to seek advice about their use. I don’t think you have hurt them with five miles on the road and you may not hurt them at all.

Some of these wagon train folks would drive 10-15 miles a day, up hills, down hills – all over. It was good for the horse business, because about every four or five years they were looking for another pair…..

If your goal is to bring them along to pull anything you want eventually – then take your time bringing them to that point and you can keep enjoying them for a longer time.

Maybe some other folks on here will have other responses.

[Gabe Ayers]

Pirate Farmer and others,

Firewood has always just been a by product of saw log production for us. In the context of restorative forestry, based upon worst first single tree selection we often have landowners that are quite concerned by the aesthetic appearance of their woodlots, so they don’t like all that slash, debris or tops of the trees left in the woods.

This presents somewhat of a conflict as a naturalist, ecologist. The greatest nutrient value in a trees body are in the parts that are four inches of less inside the bark, meaning most of the material some see as a “mess” in the woods. We see it as soil building, wildlife habitat, deer browse protection and generally stuff that isn’t worth the skilled labor of removing, so we prefer to leave it where it falls and explain all this to the land owner. We often lop and scatter or cut the stuff into smaller pieces so it will lay closer to the ground and degrade faster. It often provides the food for the fruit of decay or edible gourmet mushrooms…which are worth far more than the wood for much less work to extract….

Of course there is the conflict between the pulpwood market and the firewood market. Most of this will go into pulpwood that can be sold commercially in longer lengths than firewood with less chainsaw work, but firewood when worked up and split is worth much more. It is a matter of where and how you want to invest your skilled labor. Given current markets, we all may not have much choice of how to turn our physical efforts into cash….

So now that I have said all that and said much about firewood, here is how it usually works for us. When a piece of debris presents itself as convenient to pull out with the saw logs we take it out and start us a firewood pile. We sometimes have the options of selling this material long length and hauling it to the customer and dumping it near their woodshed and charging less that if we worked it up. Then we have a few customers that know we are in the “wood business” and ask us for firewood, which to them means bucked to lengths for their stove, split and somewhat dry. We always keep much of that commodity around either back at our place or on a landing somewhere.

The primary issue historically is that .95 cents of every firewood dollar is labor. So it becomes a choice of where you want to invest your skilled labor.
I say historically because that may not be the case today as in the past. For instance the cost of the fuel wood hasn’t gone up in the past with the price of fuel oil, so we have not been to excited about selling it or at least no including in the prospect of harvesting it for the value. But the (sawlog and pulpwood) markets are quite feeble today and the ability to turn any raw material assessable from the natural resource base into cash particularly on a community based model, meaning don’t have to haul it far or can sell from the farm (like Carl), is providing another perspective economically.

Remember this response is regionally specific and that it is a different situation in each different region and community. We are happy to have a little market here and there for our fire wood. We like having some of it that is two and three years old stacked around in the hedge row waiting for the customer to come along. Of course it also helps us to see the grand kids when their parents (my children) show up needing some firewood….

I think the small size of much of this material makes using smaller draft animals very appropriate. As a matter of fact that is how I worked in the woods for the first time with my own animals. They were 600 pound pulling ponies and we worked with some local folks “cleaning up” after a timber harvest and pulled many truckloads out of a woodlot to a yard that served as the processing site for the different lengths firewood. It was very rewarding to have some useful work to do with animals that were pretty much a hobby at the time. Far less boring than driving in a circle on a sled and I did get paid something…

Firewood is something that also gains value with time alone. Meaning that the longer it lays around and drys the more valuable it actually is, because it makes better fuel that creates less creosote and burns with a lower draft in the stove and therefore gives off or keeps more heat in the home… “Seasoned”
So putting some aside may not be immediately returning income, but a good investment into your own time, team and future marketable products. Wood drys and if kept off the ground will not rehydrate as fast as it lost moisture.
There is a limit to this though and some species of hardwood won’t last so well outside, so about three years is the best, depending on how small one splits it. The general rule is that it takes about a year an inch to get wood down to about 14% moisture, which is nice burning wood…. lights off easy and stays in the stove longer and puts off more heat because you don’t have to have the flue wide open to get it to burn…and thereby letting all the heat up the chimney.

We are fortunate to have such a diverse forested resource in central Appalachia with so many species of trees for so many uses. But each area has it’s own valuable material and can be worked so sensitively with animals.

Just don’t put your wood stack under an eve of a building or in a confluence on the ground. It tends to be allot harder to dry in those places….and yes I have seen lots folks do this, particularly new people to the country. These are the same folks that build their fences with the wire or boards on the roadside not the livestock side of the post…. Looks nice, but doesn’t work as well.

We have had markets for long length to people that have firewood processors, but the recent market chances in fossil fuel cost have flooded those markets with what was previously hardwood pulp at about $21.00 per ton delivered.

Hope this helps, thanks for asking. I would still use an arch if I could, be careful – plan it all out before you start, have everything ready to go before harnessing your work animals and rest your animals when they are doing everything just right.

Also take a chainsaw safety and skill course and use personal protective gear always….

Good luck on being a “woodchuck”, if you are going to be one – be a sustainable woodchuck….

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