[Gabe Ayers]

Sorry for bumping Moonshadow’s last good post on the articles in SFJ, but as you can read here this needs a response by today. I am going to forward it to the folks on the list you recommended too Robert, thanks.

Jason

Hello Teamsters,

I appreciate the interest in this project (Dam Stabilization in the High Uintas Wilderness – Animal Power Information Request (Production Rates & Price)). However, I don’t have all the information needed to send to the decision maker and time is running out. The time has come to get the information to the decision maker so the US Forest Service knows whether or not to develop a solicitation.

The last call for information is this Tuesday, 3-17-09 at 4:30 PM Mountain Standard.

I need specific and realistic production rates on dam stabilization tasks and volumes that I sent out . I also need a cost breakdown on for tasks and items (keep in mind animal and people feed, animal packer support for the project and any other miscellaneous items related to doing work up to 13 miles into wilderness from a trailhead parking area).

I can’t make a complete assessment for what you teamsters can do or make recommendation without this info

I hope you are all still interested and I hope we can at least do one of the lakes with horses.

Thank you all for you time to date and I hope I hear from you.

Please feel free to cal me at my office or cell phone number listed below.

R. Brian Paul, High Lakes Dam Stabilization Coordinator

USDA Forest Service – Ashley National Forest
Duchesne Ranger District
85 W. Main, PO Box 981
Duchesne, UT 84021

Cell#: (435) 790-0273
Office #: (435) 781-5217
Fax #: (435) 781-5215

email: Robert Paul rpaul@fs.fed.us

[Gabe Ayers]

Ira,

Having hauled a few horses these long distances I can certainly say it can be done. The primary concern I had was making sure they drank plenty of water before the trip started and during the trip. Also I have read and practiced that after 7 hours of riding a horse should at least have a while of standing still or being taken off the trailer for some walk around time. We would just find a spot where they could be taken off and walked around a bit and then back at it.

Keeping their diets the same is important, meaning don’t change hay types and don’t feed them much grain during the traveling. If you are going to be on the road for that long it may be good to haul water they are used to drinking so they will continue drinking it in route.

This would also be a good application of Probiotics in preparation for the stress of traveling. They make several commerical products that can be administered prior to the stress to keep their guts working while riding. Watching to make sure they are passing manure and urine is good. Usually when we stop to get fuel or food we park on the downhill side of the parking lot so the steam that runs out of the trailer doesn’t go across the parking lot
particularly if it is on the path to the store entrance….can be funny to see a
city person step in it, but not really good manners to laugh at their reaction to the smell of that stream….

I also recommend hauling them backwards on the trailers, facing the direction they came from or the back of the trailer. If it is very cold and you are pulling a stock trailer with open sides, we will cover their muzzles with a burlap bag to warm the air they are breathing to lessen the chance of them getting shipping fever. Of course you have to take that off for them to eat and drink a little in route. Since they work for several hours without eating this effort of riding is similar and can be imitated during the ride.

Now I can’t help but ask, where are you going man? I hope it is to the southeast so we can work together again some day. Where ever it is, know that you have friends logging in the Appalachians that wish you well Ira King.

[Gabe Ayers]

@Bret4207 6932 wrote:

I can’t comment on the current industry, but isn’t this what we’ve brought to ourselves? Not “us” here so much, but the populance of the USA? In our zeal for “clean air and water” we’ve gone too far to the left and forced many of the nasty papermills out of business through regualtion and tax. In our quest for “a better environemt” we’ve made logging a filthy word, complete with visual images of dead Spotted Owls and talking Redwoods and of course the “Death of the Rain Forest”. This is to say nothing of Gov’t intrusion and taxation and the simple fact the people don’t understand anything about where the wood for their toilet paper comes from. You have a population that has been sold on the “evil” of smokestack industry, a Gov’t that is sold on taxing any industry out of existence and a media that no longer even pretends to check facts on anything they report. Add all this in to the current economic issues (mostly the fault of Gov’t regualtion and lack of ethical oversight) and here we are. What else did you expect?

IMO the answer to many of our modern day problems isn’t a rush to progressive gov’t and “green” living, but a return to a common sense view on husbandry, conservation and sustainability. We have to get back, or ahead, to a day in which people understand that a natural resource can be exploited without guilt and that with proper stewardship that resource can be self-sustaining and regenerative. Not doing this will just lead to our ruin, further degradation of lands and waters in other places that still follow the “rape and pillage” path, and our eventual descent to third world status.

I may the village idiot, but I fail to see how anyoine else can miss all this.

Bret,

Not that I want to antagonize you to further comments, but nonetheless I simply can’t agree with much of this post. I am sure you will persist to have the final word as in the past of our exchanges, I simply can’t resist pointing out what very different views we have. We see it differently. These issues are not missed.

Commenting on the condition of the current industry is the point of the original post, and to share what we could do differently to survive economically, doing what we love to do. Most of the posters (on this issue – animal powered loggers) on here do have a relationship with the current industry and are – although a small portion – a part of it.

Educating the public (populace) as to the benefits of alternative methods is a goal of many here on this site and it certainly is one of my personal goals.

Paper mills are the primary source of Dioxin in our environment. It is cancer causing and not the only way to bleach pulp. If they can’t innovate and figure out cleaner ways of making paper, then they should be out of business…for the public’s sake, who only have the government to represent their interest and the interest of future generations.

Conventional logging is filthy. It is the primary source or “non source point pollution” in the form of sedimentation from road building and skid trail construction. It is a system that uses immense amounts of fossil fuel,
intense capitalization and in the end pits one logger against another with
no concern for the quality of the services.

The over production of conventional forestry practices probably plays more of a part in the current economic problems in this industry than government regulation or taxes.

There will eventually be a better understanding of the cost of damage to the ecosystems from this filthy logging. Conventional logging has earned the reputation it has…just remember that the next time you drive by a clear cut.
For a close up view, just take a walk through one of those harvesting sites.

I have never seen a picture of a dead spotted owl or heard a talking redwood, but I may not watch the same TV or media as you.

I do understand the concept of the canary in the coal mine and paying attention to the plight of lesser species may be the key to the dominate species survival. I’d bet we agree that humans are the dominate species on this planet.

Most people do know paper comes from trees, but most don’t know that around 70% of the material in land fills is recyclable paper products…

The smokestack industries are a primary cause of acid rain and certainly a contributor to pollution vented high enough that the folks right around the place don’t die rapidly. These old industries may have started before their impact was known, but that is no excuse today. The concept of the solution to pollution is dilution is expressed in this old industry and it should adapt or die. Of course just shipping the industries abroad for a higher profit margin for the elite few that gain from industries is a short term solution. But to blame all their/our woes on regulation and taxation is shallow, simplistic and politically charged.

There is no “rush” to progressive government, it has taken years… at least eight. “Green living” is a return to common sense. Many did expect changes but for very different reasons than you post.

In your final paragraph you use a word that just pushed me over the limit of tolerance of not responding to your comments.

“exploited without guilt”
websters – exploit – 1.to utilize, esp. for profit; turn to practical account; to exploit a business opportunity. (I agree with this definition, but the most understood and practiced use in our modern world is something else. I think that is what you meant, hopefully) – second definition – 2. to use selfishly for one’s own ends.

To do this – “exploited without guilt” – the primary goal and definition should be about stewardship or making a place better than you found it. That environmental ethic is the greatest aspect of human behavior that is not rewarded by the existing dominant systems…. which is what we are trying to do differently and change.

I do agree with the rest of your paragraph from there.

I suspect you will have plenty to say about this response.

One suggestion is that if you place your cursor under the words with red lines under them and right click it will give you options on spelling. I don’t know much about computers either and most of what I do, other people have taught me, I didn’t figure it out on my own.

You and I are probably more alike that different, but we do have clear differences.

I wish I could remove the signature sometimes, because this post in not from our organization, but me personally. Hard to separate it sometimes, but I do wear allot of hats.

Meanwhile we are enjoying a three day long gentle soaking rain in the Appalachians and spring seems more promising to those invested in making a living from the work in forests and fields. Spring is near.

[Gabe Ayers]

Hard to believe that photograph is now almost four years old. The kid in the foreground is now over six foot tall and still playing with horses when not playing with a musical instrument.

As Carl points out a horse is not pulling anything but pushing into a collar that is bearing hames and tugs and singletree back to the load. When we talk to new folks about harness and working horses we tell them that they are not pulling but pushing against the resistance of the load. But as mentioned they are not just pushing but lifting per the angle of the collar and attached apparatus. This is often explained as being not just pushing but lifting and the terms are supported by the control on the right of every tractor seat being the “draft” control which means lift. So I think this may have been why work horses are called draft horses and that control called the draft. Or the connection seems obvious in terms anyway.

As we describe the harness to new students we try to think of it’s fitting as an imitation of the horses body itself. With the collar being a muscle the hames being bones and the tugs and straps being ligments, all added onto the animal to capture energy from movement without injury or excessive wear to the animal. There are much more subtle views and aspects to this concept, but some things have to be saved for the actual course information we provide….

On the movement of the horse question about hopping or moving both hind feet in unison there becomes a consideration of the rate of travel. I suspect the speed of AK’s horse is truly an expression of lack of confidence in being able to respond to a command and wanting to simply go faster from the insecurity of being able to move against the resistance. Of course the experience of the handler and signals transferred come into play.

After time working, horses know/learn that a load moving faster is lighter or easier to move than one moving slower. This complicates the insecurity issue. But there is a limit to the rate of travel that is experienced when the load is jerked forward so far and quickly that it actually has to be started a second time because it comes forward to quickly and actually stops before the team or horse can apply themselves to the effort in a continual motion.

This is where the skill of the teamster comes into play. Being able to get your animals to apply themselves with enough energy to start a dead weight without jerking it so far they have to start it twice is a skill. It may be accomplished through the contact command and release simultaneously method of starting. This clear multiple message contact allows the animal to know what you want and when sensitively applied through appropriate tension, may control the pace of the start. And then the challenge is to not ask them for to much for their ability, conditioning, size and of course heart or willingness to give all they have…and often more…

Most highly competitive pulling horses hop about three times and then power walk the load the remaining distance of a pull. But the point is that the good ones are not just rocketed out there on a load without any contact, guidance and confidence conveyed through the contact on the bit and lines.

Allowing a team to launch is not the best way to have sensitive control in the tight situations of working in the woods or even staying between the lines at a pulling contest or keeping your horses balanced and able to apply their strength to the resistance. There is a happy medium of allowing a little bump on a heavy load and then continuing a sensitive contact to promote confidence for continuing the effort against resistance.

Hope this helps. Keep working. There is no replacement for experience, keep working and always stop when things are going perfect….

[Gabe Ayers]

Great idea.

Many years ago I was doing a search about something and came onto a story about a device called a “Radio Horse”. It was a winch on a sled
that had a remote control that would allow the logger to accompany a log up a steep slope with a remote. Sounds real similar to your yarder. I also knew a fellow that bought a sewer cleaner from an municipal auction and converted it to be a yarder by using the cable and boom to pull logs up out of steep holes.

On small tracts in the mountains sometimes a fellow has no other option but to come straight up the mountainside, mostly because of water at the bottom or boundary lines.

Both these approaches were faster than using the horses and a cable and sheave/snatch block arrangement. It will certainly pull a hang up down easier that hooking the horses directly to it.

Looking forward to photos. Thanks man.

[Gabe Ayers]

Steve,

Yes sir, tell us about your redneck forwarder, with photos if you can. Sounds interesting and informative.

We are not quitting either, just looking for better opportunities to add value to the material we harvest when possible and keeping more of that value for ourselves. We have just been dumping junk in the conventional markets when we couldn’t do anything else with it…. which unfortunately is to often.
I think most of us will do this horselogging work until we die.

Looking forward to hearing about and seeing the forwarder…

[Gabe Ayers]

Thank goodness this was not true as suggested by the forwarded emails. This site ends up being a clearinghouse of information, thank you Jen. Also thanks for not shooting the messenger, yet…

I still oppose any unnecessary government proposals and programs…which may be something everyone on here can agree on….maybe?

[Gabe Ayers]

Yep,

I did miss it last time, sorry, it came from another source this time, with a different heading and I did check it out.

We will have to stand up or be run over and organic farming will disappear, which seems to be the intention of the backers of this legislation.

I suppose our best/only option is to use the contact your legislator link provided by Happy when Hitched.

Thanks all,

[Gabe Ayers]

ok I believe I have things all set now. Please report any new issues you encounter.

[Gabe Ayers]

the index page is fixed – the new server was defaulting to a different page aside from index.php

I am working on the Photos issue -> the new server is a Windows server whereas the old was a Unix server so there are some configuration problems with the photo software but I expect to get them ironed out tonight. Thanks for your patience.

[Gabe Ayers]

The site is now on the new server. If anyone experiences any difficulties please let me know although I expect smooth sailing.

[Gabe Ayers]

I went to the sustainability site too, posted a listing in the non-profit section and was asked for 10 Euro’s, so I am not sure if I can afford to be on the site….we don’t have 10 extra dollars…and no euro’s…

I couldn’t seem to find much information about anything else on the site, but I am somewhat computer challenged…

[Gabe Ayers]

Rick and others,

I have avoided posting here because I don’t want to be in front of some intelligent landowner that would be interested in your services, whatever they may be.

I suspect that the skills of an experienced woodsman such as yourself would be very valuable to certain clientele. Actually – to any woodland owner. You are also right that the best reference is from one previous client to the next client. Also neighbors in rural parts of the country watch what other neighbors are doing and usually do similar things with their forest land and wood lots. So despite all the high powered advertising and the connectivity of the internet, people talking to people is still the best advertisement going.

We have been investigating how to get government support for timber stand improvement in overcrowded and previously high graded sites. This is just about everywhere in our area and I suspect the entire eastern U.S. We are interested in this since the Natural Resource Conservation Specialist visited the site at Crooked River and said he could have cost shared on some of the forestry work we did for that landowner, given that it actually was timber stand improvement, just at a much more advanced age that the normal efforts to repair a clear cut rapidly. I will indeed let you know if I get any more information on that development.

I know there are some guys in the west that are involved in some kind of contract tree removal around structures and municipalities that are getting a great hourly wage and keeping the wood, which they sell for firewood. I am not sure these programs apply for the east, since the fire threat is much different here. I will inquire about the program they are working through.
I think the guy heading the program from the horselogger end is an old hand named Drake.

I also want to comment that Carl’s mentioning that there are young foresters that are interested in developing their consulting around the option of animal powered extraction – is encouraging news. I would invite them to inquire with our group and see if we can link them with anyone that may help them in that approach. This is exactly what several of our HHFF trained Biological Woodsmen did, as institutionally educated foresters.

If any landowners do happen upon this thread and post, I can tell them that I have communicated with Rick Alger for years and he knows what he is doing and has a good reputation with anyone I have ever asked about him.
They and their forest would be well served to have such an experienced woodsmen doing what he knows is best for their woods, as well as assisting them to reach their objectives and goals as forest landowners.

[Gabe Ayers]

Geoff,
It is better to stop two steps to soon, than one step to late…err on the side of caution, it’s positive reinforcement.

Then the challenge is to build them up to the strongest equine athletes they can be. Build them mentally and physically.

There is a certain sensitivity of line contact that will tell you when an honest pair have gone far enough. When they subtly come off the bit – despite continued effort with movement against the resistance of the load – it can suggest their wondering it they have been far enough. When you want that little bit more, at that subtle instant – I would call on them, sometimes with a cluck, sometimes a kiss, sometimes voice.

It does come down to the teamster knowing the teams limits. Keep practicing, you will get it.

Any body that has ever really worked horses for any length of time has hung them on a load they couldn’t move. It is not the end of the earth. Just help them be more honest by letting them succeed on the next effort.

Horses remember where they are hooked to a very heavy load. Horses remember everything. Horses see about 80% more than most of us expect.

I would say that under expert hands it would take 6 -8 weeks of work to get a pair truly fit. From there it would be a refinement to get them stouter and know how to apply themselves with great efficiency. Amazing actually…

[Gabe Ayers]

You are mistaken Humble1, those people were/are from Tennessee. Virginia was never mentioned in the show….???

There is a long thread on here (DAP) about this from when it first hit the air waves. I agree, not great horsemanship or mule skinning or animal husbandry.

Some folks in that previous thread pointed out that they were doing the best they knew how and just trying to feed their families.

I am not sure where the thread is at on this site, but it is here somewhere, you may enjoy reading it.

Just found it at:

Extreme Logging = Sensationalism under Books/Resources

[Author]

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