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Gabe Ayers
KeymasterNeal,
I think this Liberty Ark has good information on this issue.
This is a link to a video about it, which I thought I had posted earlier:
http://www.libertyark.net/NAIS-new/NAIS%20Clip/#
Hope this helps, we have some many battles to keep our rights in this land of the free. I think it means one must be very brave to remain free….
KeymasterThese devices are called “Big Wheels” in the south and were used to move
large logs in the pine coastal areas of the entire southeast. I have seen them in photographs where they were used to completely suspend the log buy putting them in the middle of the log, weight wise and then pulling the tongue down and binding it to the log and hooking the team directly to the log. The obvious limitations of this device is that it is strictly used on level ground and for long lengths of wood. We happen to have one in a museum here in our local county. It was the original log arch I suppose and they could move some really big wood on level ground. I have seen similar versions of the same concept of putting the wheels over the log and pulling the tongue down to lift it and provide suspension for skidding or carrying the logs considerable distance to an on site mill or loading spot. As the timber got smaller there seems to have been developments of smaller versions of this device. I consider our current log arch such an evolving of that concept. Given that our logs are not that large anymore and that we do lots of downhill skidding this current version serves well. Some of the later models had a ratchet arrangement so that as the tongue was pulled down it was held by a lift mechanism like the ones on old plows that lift themselves when tripped. There is one of them in a museum in Richmond, Va. There are versions of this device that are all steel and very rugged. Some actually don’t have a tongue but studded wheels that when placed forward and the log is pulled forward the wheels catch and lift the logs into the ratcheted
raised position and lock to be skidded to the landing. This is a nice device, with the exception that an old man can’t ride on it….Cool that someone is Europe is digging these devices out of the past and using them today. I suspect there aren’t many wheel wrights that could make one today.
KeymasterWe keep it in a heated area and take it out with us and then keep it in the truck, if convenient. Biodegradable from Bailey’s doesn’t solidify. That is a limitation for this product in lower temperatures. Maybe an insulated container if you were going to keep it outside all day. We also often have a burn barrel at the landing and we have set it near that. Coming in for a warm up and refueling and oil is sort of a reward for working in the cold… It’s like leaving the water at the landing when skidding, a little reward for bringing out another skid. We don’t always have vegetable oil available. But it does work fine to lube the chain. Harder to do nearly anything really clean it seems.
KeymasterDon,
That’s a pretty young mare. Nice contrast of color against the snow. The light was nice, good photography by the wife. Hope you luck with her, what will she do for you mostly?
What is her whole name, just for insight into her breeding?
KeymasterWelcome Melinda,
Glad you are here with us. This site is somewhat frequented more by folks in the Northeast, but there are some southerners here too.
I wanted to invite you to go to the “Cultural Missionary Work” post/page and click on the link about the event we worked on in Conyers, Ga. last week. You may have been able to see it on local TV channel 11, NBC, w/ Mark Pickard.
We are planning to return to this area to conduct some training sessions on Restorative Forestry and modern horse logging at the Monastery of the Holy Spirit. We would like to invite anyone interested to attend. The end goal is to establish more biological woodsmen in that area and specifically to help the monastery with the future management and restorative forestry on their 2000 acre property. These were great folks to work with.
Let me know what you think.
There are no ignorant questions, just lots of people to dumb to ask anyone anything…. We are all here (DAP) to learn and share.
My understanding is that a chunk is a draft cross that has all the characteristics of any other draft horse, just not color specific or size specific or of registered ancestry. There may be other descriptions better than that.
KeymasterY 4,
I think you can do it, you are already doing it to a degree and every loaded step your animals take instead of another revolution of an I.C. engine is a plus for your independence and the planets survival. Everyone on this board probably has some fossil fuel dependency, I know we do. It seems almost impossible under current conditions to operate without it, although many believe it is not impossible and live toward the end of complete fossil fuel energy independence. It seems appropriate that we be weaned from the
addiction to oil and not shut off instantly and working toward the freedom of
self sufficiency would naturally be a gradual process.One big problem is that we don’t have large families nowadays that are centered on the land for our livings. That anthropological culture is the key to continuity on the farm. In the absence of that biological family often through careful selection and trial periods some apprentices could become
part of the labor needed to do things with less oil and more human effort along with animal power. That is an extended family approach and is not easy, but could be a path to expanding the work force and sharing the experience of what could truly be a “good life”. It will be a tired life, with calloused hands, sore backs and weathered complexions on the folks that do the work. Most of the wrinkles will reflect deep smile lines.Getting older and less physically capable is definitely something we all deal with, some sooner than later. So passing the knowledge and inspiration of how and why to do this type of work can start now. Since the labor saving machines and fossil fuel is not going to disappear overnight using leased or rented equipment from within the community is a nice transition phase and is what most of us do, that are actually making a living with the animals as a key component to survival economically.
Differentiation of source methods is a growing niche in our modern world.
Organics are now closer to mainstream than ever and in this country we believe that the market will fix everything so educating and demonstrating to the public that alternative methods of addressing human needs is important, even if only on a percentage basis at the moment.
Defining yourself and your work and products as being different is important.
Any other definition may reduce and marginalize your work beneath what it actually is. Ignore those that detract from your efforts to be different and work within the inspiration of your own sense of doing the best you can.Green is the new cool and maybe will eventually become a common value in society and market, so that could be the code to cracking the combination of the lock the dominant paradigm has on the world economy. In the current economic conditions all businesses are looking for ways to sell their services and goods and this “green” approach is being spun by everyone from Wal-Mart to Mom and Pop grocery stores. It is promising that “green” is less threatening than it was a decade ago, so we should stick together to work with others of similar mindset, principles and purpose.
Keep up your good work. I suspect you represent many in similar situations so don’t feel alone or isolated in this quest.
Be prepared for dismissal by some. Remember the old saying about how to tell who the real leaders are: they are the ones with arrows or bullet holes in them from all directions….
*A note is that on the page/post about the “Cultural Missionary Work” there are hot links to media about that project and not one person has commented on it, so I suspect it hasn’t been seen among all the good information and exchanges on this site. It is an example of how we may be paid well for our services with animal power. I think most DAP members will enjoy it.
KeymasterBelow are some links to media about this past event. It was such a pleasure to work the monks of the Monastery of the Holy Spirit.
Hope you enjoy the images and text.
[url]HTTP://www.rockdalecitizen.com/main.asp?SectionID=2&subsectionID=2&articleID=5833[/url]
KeymasterThe Weaver family down in Liberty, Ky. make those treadmills that are usually at HPD. Tim Weaver the elder son attended one of our courses last spring is a horseman and woods worker indeed. They are Mennonite and have a phone number listed and would be glad to talk with you about all the stuff they have ran with their treadmills.
I would guess that you are talking about a cordwood saw?
I would love to have one that would handle four horses and really provide some power. Of course I would also love to have a new truck and horse trailer, but it ain’t going to happen any time soon.
Call the Weaver’s see what they have to offer. They will be at the Southern Draft Animal Days in the fall of the new year….09
Happy New Year Draft Animal Power folks.
KeymasterWelcome,
Go to the Virginia Draft Horse and Mule Association web page and look on the members list for a fellow named Bill Spiden. He has a pair of oxen and works them in public settings frequently. I am not sure of if he mentors folks formally or not, but his animals have always been well behaved over the years he has had them in public.
Let me know if you find him through that link. Good luck with it.
KeymasterI agree with Neal, if you can afford them both, buy them. The high gear pulls harder, so the regular gear may be easier on your animals if they are not in top notch shape when the weather says – make hay.
Remember, farmers grow grass, but weather makes hay….so you have to be prepared to make hay while the sun shines, especially with animal powered techniques that limits how much one can get done in a day or a period of a few good days to cure hay. A good back up mower would save lots of anguish when trying to repair one when you should be mowing….
Having an extra mower to hook to when something goes wrong or even if you have a neighbor willing to help with mowing or you get another team would be comforting when the hay starts to ripen and you are looking to fill the barn.
I would add that you are fortunate to have two serviceable mowers available in your community. Certainly not the case everywhere. Good luck.
Won’t be long we will all be getting seed catalogs and planning for the next growing season.
Happy Holidays everyone!
KeymasterIt seems the geography is the most important feature to laying out a farm, fields and forest.
Not that one lays out a forest in a natural setting, but allows the land to be used for what is best with the least amount of human input.
The aspect and exposure of the land dictates the best use of the land. South facing land is warmer and better for agricultural uses and north facing steeper land for hardwood or mixed hardwood/softwood forest. Cool moist coves grow high quality hardwood timber, sunny side grows softwoods best.Drainage is an issue for building placement with he roofs draining away from the buildings and the high traffic areas like road beds being easy to remove snow from or keep in shape by dragging or grading and well drained to keep water from following the road and putting your improved surface in the ditch instead of staying on the road bed. Placing buildings such as loafing sheds and feeding shelters to provide protection from cold northwest winds would make sense, again remembering that they will drain water from the roofs that will have to go downhill somewhere, even if you are catching it in a collection system once it overflows.
Many older animal powered facilities did have lots of pull through arrangements, like corn cribs, wood sheds and hay storage for loose hay. These arrangements were often where equipment (wagons) were left parked when no in use. Howie is right though in that on level ground a team can back an implement as well as a tractor in skilled hands with the right sized equipment.
There may be better suggestions or some referral to printed material on this issue recommended by other readers/posters. Since we still use an integrated system of machines and horses, we may not have the best ideas about all animal power. I suspect a study of Amish farms and layout could be insightful. I agree that the design to be animal power friendly is important and we do try to think of that form of power first when laying out every thing we do on the place. Our land being in the mountains limits lay out in some ways and compliments it in others. It is always interesting to see that the old folks put all the homes, barns and buildings in the worst spots land wise and kept the good laying land for farming and forestry.
It is a sad thing to see so many old farms turned into sub divisions with houses situated with regard to the roads only, no chimneys and trees randomly planted in fields that families spent generations clearing of forest and cultivating top soil for crops and in the end grow mostly houses….
Good question Rod, hope you share with us what you learn and how you adapt your modern mechanized layout to be more appropriate to animal power.
KeymasterI have been teaching formally through several venues since about the early eighties. The first course I ever got paid to teach was for the now defunk, (but responsible for starting HPD) North American Horse and Mule Association. The fellow running that group then was Phil Farrell, son of Wendell Farrell that used to run the Clyde farm for Busch, when old man Auggie was alive. It was held at Ferrum College, down off the mountain, a few miles from our farm. Half of the people were relatively young.
That is an interesting question, by the answer being very important to our future. Currently after so many courses over the years we have come to the eduational programs listed here (http://www.restorativeforestryinstitute.org) and through HHFF mentor apprentice programs. Most of the folks are young, far younger than myself or the average age of forest industry workers nationwide.
The average age in our group of practitioners is 31. We are very interested in training more young people. We currently have over 200 applications for Biological Woodsmen apprenticeships, we just don’t have the funding to pay mentors compensation for lost production while teaching or scholarships to equip and support students while they learn. This is the core or our organization – public education, specifically Biological Woodsmen. Anyone interested can find our more on the website of contact me directly.
This is the time of the year for charitable giving but if you are as economically challenged as we are, you have little to give money wise. Our tax deductible donation information is on the website, (address below). Just working your horses/animals and sharing it with anyone interested is probably the best way to promote the culture.
It would be good if the training started at 4-H ages. There doesn’t seem to be draft horse projects in 4-H all over the country. It seems they are stronger where parents take it on as project leaders. Does anyone out there have a draft horse, mule or oxen 4-H program?
It is scary to have really young kids around young horses.
What age do most folks think is best to start them working with the horses? The old timers used to say it take four generations to make a horseman. I think in today’s times, with some students, it can take much less time.
We do have youngsters around frequently, but wish we had more. I order to be in our program, they have to be of legal age (18) to be somewhat responsible for themselves and know what they are getting into.
This could be an interesting thread, thanks for posting it. This is important.
KeymasterDon,
It sounds like maybe yellow ash wilt, but it could be the Asian long horned beetle, or Emerald Ash Borer, both brought here in un – kiln dry – wet green pallets from…..you guessed it….. China.
Once I was at a sustainable forestry conference in NYC when the first ones (insects) were discovered in Central Park. What a stupid place to have a forestry conference… After a few drinks some of us decided to would be a good idea to fumigate every tree in big plastic bags…and folks thought we were nuts…. It would have been a great investment in the forest of the entire continent. They didn’t do it and the bugs escaped into the environs.
The ones that thought we were crazy were probably right if being sane means going along with the same old things from the status quo power structure people that have a vested interest in all of us being mindless consumers and/or robots.
But the fact is I don’t know how to deal with the alien invasive insects, botanicals, fungus, virus (or even Mexicans). Biological control is the best approach and there are currently none known for many of these pathological forces on the forests.
I think you can definitely harvest these trees NOW and turn them into some value and I would do it as soon as possible because they are not getting any better. In fact the ash that are showing decline in bark or leaf are also probably growing/creating bigger heartwood, meaning darker reddish brown wood. This characteristic has been traditionally a lower value log and never a veneer log. Ash is the lCD of hardwoods. The beautiful white wood can be stained to be the color of anything, with distinct cathedral grain patterns. But when it gets a lot of darker heartwood you lost the option to stain it light colors, which sometimes are the style, say in modern housing cabinets in kitchens. The blush look is in recently for light colored interiors, which is what a lot of ash lumber goes into.
The market sucks right now. But if there is a market at any price it is better than them dieing, falling over and rotting into the forest floor.
I wrote recently about value adding lumber from logs and that will make you the most money but it is not easy. That post is on the
http://www.restorativeforestry.com site.
There are lots of things to do with the lumber, all of which are worth lots more than raw logs. Sell raw logs, get a raw deal – in most cases….
I would consider it salvage harvesting Don, save what you can of it while you can. It is a notoriously brittle wood that is easy to crack a log when felling or bucking, so skill is required there. I have had ash logs setting on a landing and pop open while we were all sitting on the log pile eating lunch.
They do still make baseball bats out of it, but I bet they have millions of feet stored somewhere for that market into the future. That would be a good use if they are straight and not pistol grip coppice regenerated from stump sprouts.
Split handles would be a product you maybe could sell over the internet and ship off the farm UPS….when I get to old to log I am going to do stuff like that…maybe. I wonder if they split baseball bats? Slow grown is the texture everyone likes, meaning more growth rings per inch.
You can always call the public forester, but don’t let them talk you into clear cutting or high grading or do a diameter limit cut….take the worst first!!!
You can probably google all those potential causes of ash mortality and see if you can identify what it is…
Log it man..let us know what you decide.
KeymasterWelcome to the Draft Animal Power board Steve…….
Do you know a fellow named Troy Firth from Titusville, Pa.?
I think Ira Greene is on this board too and he logs up in NW Pa.
I hear you on living to work your horses, you have found a good site with that common value among many members.
Please tell us about your horse logging operation.
KeymasterI think this is a farce or joke of some kind, not started by our posters, but others….. The entire idea is insanity maybe even beneath the government if that is actually possible. Some better computer folks than me report back that it simply isn’t true, but no telling what kind of electronic rumors are started everywhere….
So I am not thinking about this issue anymore – on to real problems like how we can make a living in the country working and keeping our animals, including the ones intended to be eaten….yum yum….
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