[Carl Russell]

This type of comparison is exactly what I have found to be a waste of time and intellect. The point is that the lifestyle options available to our children are shortsighted and destructive, and the only solution is not to point my fingers at others, but to point them at the earth in front of me, and put them to use building the most sensible possibilities that I can come up with.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I know that these beliefs about living sustainably require substantial effort, because on the face of it, one little home is such a small drop in a huge ocean, and it is very easy to see that the “real” problem is that there are all these other people who are making “bad” choices, or at the very least the same old choices.

However, first of all, I think our future sustainability really depends on individual energy independence, and we have been living for centuries in a global human environmental occupation, whereby through social networks we have propped up so many lifestyles that have become habitual that as a whole we have created a juggernaut, and the solution will have to be a reversing of the mass consciousness through billions of alternative examples.

Second it does nothing, in my experience, to blame the shortsighted decisions of others, or to target overpopulation, these people are all part of our human experience, here and now, and although we can definitely learn from what see around us, and around the world, sustainability has a huge amount to do with personal responsibility.

As a community member, and a parent, the choices I make about lifestyle have their roots in how I interpret my responsibility, to set an example, and to pull together, skills, resources and infrastructure, to go beyond my own personal feel good solutions, but to help the people who come along after me by breaking some of the cultural conventions that have landed us as a group where we are.

I don’t care how long oil/petroleum can last, 80-150 years is peanuts, and if anyone disputes the environmental destruction they should lay down behind a car and breath the exhaust for a while, but I can see the ill-effects of the choices we have made with oil in mind, and as a parent I cannot, with good conscience, lead my children head long into that future.

One of the points we should acknowledge is that natural organisms are all motivated by an innate drive to live, to succeed, and in that they can continue to develop even as the resources that the depend on dwindle around them. Watch a plant in a drought, it can’t tell that there is no water until it has begun to die from drought. Humans, on a basic level are very similar, but we do have a little bit better cognitive skills, so those of us who can see the impending drought can be the mutation that allows the organism to develop drought resistance, one little gene at a time.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Way to go Jenn. It’s been so cool to watch this progression. I hope you’re documenting all this for a complete presentation at NEAPFD:D.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

near horse;9328 wrote:

Carl, you left out the first part of this saying …. “Eat it up, wear it out, make it do or do without”.

Yeah that part is such second nature that I always forget it.

As far as sustainability, I don’t think it wrong to see sustainabilty only in terms of earth-based energy transfer processes. That way we can be honest to ourselves about the limitations of our choices. Compromising so that a large number of people can absorb the change is not “sustainable” it is just workable. I am a victim of these days and times, as all of us are, and although I strive toward sustainabilty, I am still a long way off, but I do put a lot of thought into which systems have the greatest long-term practicality on this farm, and finding areas to isolate our unsustainable needs to ways that can be dropped IF/WHEN they need to be.

The biggest problem with petroleum is the dependence on it as a power source to fuel the expansion of a culture. When I say “oil is over”, I don’t mean there isn’t a drop left, I mean that from now on, all that is left is enough to keep running the machine that is already in place, and there is not enough, or at least enough that is cheap enough, to fuel the development of another world order. For future economic and social vitality we will have to seriously consider, and adopt, sources of energy that are easily available to the common person, both in terms of cost, and in terms of physical accessibility, and by definition, those will be more sustainable ONLY IF we learn to use them sustainably.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

About the need to cut off a yoke, I worked my cattle for nearly ten years almost exclusively in the woods, on all types of terrain with carts, sleds, and loose, and found them to be very sure footed. The only time they ever went down was on the landing, when the off ox, stretching to get a mouthful of raspberry, pushed the nigh ox against a tree, causing him to fall over the pole. When i turned around I saw one ox standing, and the other one stangling between the yoke and the pole while his entire 2500 lbs was laying on the pole. I was able to just tap out the bow pin completely releasing the pressure. I think the design lends itself quite well to emergency extraction.
Anyway I got the yoke off both of them, gave the off ox the raspberries, had to work to convince the nigh one he wasn’t still dying, got him to his feet, showed him the raspberries, got the yoke un-hitched from the cart, stood the cattle, yoked them, re-hitched, and went back to work.

As far as hitching i always hitch the same way. Back Gee or back Haw over the pole, lift the pole into the ring, back them into the load, and take the chain back to hitch to the hook. This way I am only reaching in front of the load from a position that I can retreat from easily, although I never have had to.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I’m setting myself up for a new odd job on the farm. For years I have mowed hay, and clipped pastures with my old New Idea sickle bar mower. However, there are new fields to improve with pretty woody brush, so I just ordered a DR Tag-along 13hp self motorized brush mower.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Firebrick, I agree to a point about the solar panels. The point about the excessive use of resources is spot on, but the cost of implementing a system is a full 50 percent related to installation. Also trying to replace current electrical use with solar is unrealistic, for all the reasons you point out, however using solar as a way to generate a small amount of electricity for a stand alone system to facilitate some of the modern conveniences such as refrigeration, telecommunications, and lighting actually does make good sense, especially if you can install the entire system as I have done, saving huge portion of the cost.

As you point out with the chainsaw, although it requires an energy source that is unsustainable, the use of which is entirely dependent on non-local production and distribution, it still makes the most sense in terms of priority use of petroleum, and the return on the type of work performed. (Although it seems like now that we are burning ethanol, we are probably going to be ruining our chainsaws faster than we would like). To me a little bit of solar electricity to run an extremely energy efficient home is much more satisfactory than buying power from the grid, both in terms of money, and environmental concerns.

Living off grid requires that conservation be the foremost source of energy. Make do, do without, then calculate your electrical needs, and install it yourself. It’s not rocket science.

I think I will be more inclined toward hand saws and axes than toward a treadmill powered buck saw when I can’t get enough gas for the CS.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I created a forum called Glossary of Terminology. Try that!!
Carl

[Carl Russell]

I like that idea Larry. I will take suggestions on how to construct the forum to allow discussion, but can be organized. I may be able to make it similar to the the equipment buyers guide, alphabetized by term. I’ll think some more about it. Any suggestions are welcome.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Yes I have made one and used it a lot over the years. I carved mine copied from an old one that my parents had picked up from an auction. Mine is cut from butternet, soft and light, but pretty strong. It is shaped for the shoulders, cupped out like a dugout canoe, with a semi circle cut out for the neck. The “arms” extend beyond the shoulders about 6″ I think, I’ll measure it, or take pictures, and then cords hang down to the point where my hands can hold the hooks.

I have carried as many as four 35lb square bales of hay, and I can also carry 4 buckets of water, 2 on the hooks, and 2 in my hands. I have found it to be a great tool for carrying those kinds of loads that are cumbersome and heavy, and which you may have to carry long distances.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

near horse;9217 wrote:

….
But when it’s time to unhitch they get antsy and want to walk off (start to take a step or two) before I’m done getting traces undone. I make them stop and then continue about my business but it starts again. Do I need to just make them stand quietly longer before I continue unhitching? I know there’s usually alot going on – other teams unhitching, drinking, eating etc but I don’t see that as any reason they can’t stand for me.

This why I say there is no difference between whoa and stand. In fact whoa means stand, in my mind.

If they are moving they obviously have to stop first, but there are not two meanings for the same word, at least as far as the horse knows. If you practice using whoa as a way to get them to interrupt their progress, or change directions, then that is what they will learn. However, if you use whoa as “stand” then that is what they will learn.

Whenever you say whoa to them have them stand. They need to show that they are resting, relaxed, standing. You will need to get into the practice of starting them before they try to start on their own, so that they learn that whoa means stand until told to move.

When they are standing well for you sometime, start unhitching. It may have as much to do with the fact that they know, by where you’ve parked, or your body language, that they are done with work, and they may be anticipating food, or water, or freedom. Break up the routine that they are anticipating.
Carl

[Carl Russell]

As far as tying when hitched, other than facing into a hitch rail, or some other substantial frontal barrier, or as in the case that J-L describes, this can be compromising for a horse if, assuming they are hitched in traces and pole or shafts, when they step ahead or off to one side and get their head turned back, being out of line with the rest of their body it can be very difficult for them to retrace their steps to get back in a place of comfort, especially as the wheels or runners of the equipment will be working against them.

I did not mean to insinuate that horses cannot be tied without success, but horses that stand quietly and don’t test the rope will stand just that quietly without the rope, and those that want to test the rope should be spared the potential difficulty.

I just prefer to work with my horses so that they will stand when told whoa, rather than trying to work with them not standing when told whoa and then tying them as a solution. I will mention that I did not come to this decision on my own. These were guidances that I got from several of my mentors. I never work a horse that won’t stand for me to change halter and bridle, and I always have my horses stand before I require them to for a particular task.

There is no doubt that horses that have worked appreciate a chance to stand, but standing is a command that I expect response from even when they’re high on fresh grass and pawing at the ground. I don’t load my spreader with a tractor, so my horses stand and wait for me to load by hand, of course then I get to rest while they work to spread it, and then they appreciate the rest in their turn.

The main thing about doing small tasks and odd jobs is that the animals need to be taken seriously, and they need to take working seriously. Sometimes I can go 2 weeks without hitching them, then want them to only pull the cultivator/row maker, and when I need to get off and adjust something, they have to stand, and I don’t have time to go drag out a 1/4 of a cord of wood to calm them down.

Yes horses that are hitched by a chain can move around a lot, and that can also be problematic, but I generally park them facing so that they won’t be inclined to move.

I think there is a big difference between standing while working and being left un-attended. I have had horses stumble and fall down in the woods while hitched double on the cart or sled, and have had to completely un-harness them to get them back on their feet. They need to be able to stand to wait, for one to be re-harnessed, and the both re-hitched. In these , and other “working” situations, I expect them to stand. I reiterate this expectation verbally, and physically by touching them and making sure they know I want them to remain calm and in place.

However, when unattended, or if I don’t feel like I want them hooked to a tree and I need to cut, in no more than 5 minutes I can have them unhitched and tied to safe tethers. In my mind they are either working, standing and working, or they are tied. Just how I was taught, and how I practice my own interpretation of safety.

This is not to say that a horse tethered to a tree can’t get themselves in a heap of trouble. I’ve had them wrap up a front leg in the lead, so take from this what you want.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Good for you. Let us know the details of the lift when you get them.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Congratulations Dennis. Say good bye to the world as you know it. It’s the most time consuming thing you have ever undertaken. Every minute worth all you can imagine. Can’t wait to hear more.
Carl

[Carl Russell]

Biological Woodsman;9154 wrote:

….This is why real working horses wear halters while working, so we can tie them up if we need to.

I agree with being prepared to tie them up, but I am of the school that thinks that working horses will stand to have their bridles taken off and halters put on, or vice versa. There is no reason in my experience to have the halter on under the bridle. It serves no purpose when the animal is being driven, and worked, and when they are to be tied, in my opinion, they should be unhitched, so changing the bridle to halter is an insignificant step.

This brings up a few comments from earlier posts that I want to address. Tying horses to light objects, or hitch rails that can be torn apart, or tying them while hitched to equipment, or tying them by their lines/bits, or standing with neck yoke and evener, are all pretty risky and potentially faulty choices.

I realize that we all bring certain levels of experience to these endeavors, and therefore we have our own understanding of personal risk/comfort, but thinking of this site as a resource for all those interested, particularly novices, I just feel the need to advise to try to avoid these types of situations.

Horses that move a sled, or hitch rail will quickly become frantic as the object “chases” them.

Horses that try to move but find their lines tied can be hurt or possibly destroy bridles.

Horses that run with neck yoke hanging in front banging on their knees, or evener bouncing off their heels, will likely be very hard to catch and calm down.

Horses that are tied by their halter under a bridle while still hitched to a piece of equipment may stand for a long time, but the potential entanglement could be tragic.

When I am not going to be able to pay attention to the animals, I unhitch from the equipment, un-bridle, halter, and tie them safely out of the way. The only alternative to that is when I hitch a choker chain around a tree and hook up the cart with animals still hitched, and in this case they think they are hooked to a working load and stand patiently.

I don’t mean to offend anyone, just thought it prudent to point out these details.

Carl

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