[Carl Russell]

Yes there must be a straight line pull from the horses to the point where the weight of the logs is attached to be most efficient.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Rod;7488 wrote:

Nice arch. I copied your plan from your site and was going to build one until I priced out the steel. Whew! Instead I made a rack that fits the back of my WH forecart. Came out pretty good, it fits into the 2″ vertical receivers made for the bench seat. It should work fine for the limited use that I will have for it, mainly firewood.

Rod, I just saw the photos of your rack. You are a fantastic fabricator. I just want to give you a heads up that the draft point (where the evener attaches) should be level with the hitch point (where the chains attach), otherwise the load will lift the pole up, and may tip you off the back. If you look closely at other logging arch designs you will see this feature. It is one of the difficulties of designing something that will give lift to the log without causing interference when getting on and off. I will also make comments on the photos in case you miss it here.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I’m with Robert, I was going to say, I think it’s going to take a lot to get grass growing in that pasture.

I want to take a copy of this picture to the Mascot Sharpening thread in the buyers guide.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have responded in blue below, Carl

Tayook;7739 wrote:

……Anyway, he offered to help set us up with everything we need to get started, aside from another saw. He has so much equipment that he no longer uses. He said a lot of it he would just give to use because it is just going to go to waste and he would rather see someone use it. His brother still trains and sells drafts too! It is a total one stop shop if we decide to pursue it. We left very excited. He even offered to allow us to harness and drive one of the teams he still has and come out in the woods with us when we first get started.

This sounds like a good opportunity to me. It will be good to get his experience to guide you. Just make sure the equipment is sound, and without being disrespectful, remember that his will not be the “only” way to do things. But, there is no replacement for a lifetime of experience, and they just aren’t making those guys anymore, so don’t pass up the chance to get his mentoring while you can.

The conversation left us with a couple more questions that he couldn’t answer.

1. He mentioned that some log buys require you to have licenses before they will buy from you. Do any of you need licenses to fell and skid logs?

Some markets are setting these guidelines. I’m not in your area, so I don’t know. Check with county foresters, or state foresters to get some contact info on local and regional markets. I don’t think you will need anything to cut and sell wood.

2. What is the ideal size saw to use? We have a Husky 455 Rancher (56cc). It has an 18 inch bar, but can go up to 20.

The 455 is a weekend warrior saw. Husky has two model lines, one for the occasional user, one for the professional. Although 56cc is not a small saw, it is on the small size for production work like firewood. Certainly I would not run more than a 16″ bar on it, to maximize the power to chain ratio. My preference is a saw in the 60-70cc range (I’m not up to speed on the new model numbers) because they can run 18-20″ bars, are powerful for felling, light enough for limbing, and can handle the work of blocking wood. The 455 would probably work fine as a felling and limbing saw with 16″ bar, because it is light, and would have plenty of power with less chain, and with large trees, boring in from both sides, you can cut a pretty big tree, I just would not base my horse logging operation on that saw. Husky makes a professional model of that size saw, and don’t let a salesman try to put a long bar on your saw, they know people think the bar length has to do with how big the saw is, so more times than not they end up with a big bar on a small saw. The saw will work best with high chain speed, and it will be easier to work with. Carl

[Carl Russell]

So amazingly, I don’t read all the threads either, but most, so if anybody has some suggestions just PM me to give me the heads up to a particular thread.

Thanx, Carl

[Carl Russell]

I believe that that is not a barber chair, but an open face front cut ala swede-cut. It is designed to maximize butt yield by making the front cut so that it comes off with the slab.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

My logging lines are about 15 feet long. It is important that there is enough line to allow the teamster room to get out of the way, and as I tried to describe before, I find a lot of situations where I need to let the horses advance without moving myself, letting the lines slip through my fingers. In this picture I am standing still letting the horse advance without following her just so I can be in the best position as she gathers the hitch. Before the end of the lines comes into my hands, I may start walking, or at least take a few steps before stopping her to reassess and reposition. Click on these thumbnails to get the larger views.

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Some of us have been referring to holding several coils of lines in one hand,as well as the lines. If you hold your driving lines in the palm of your hand this may seem cumbersome. However, I hold my driving lines between my first two fingers, and the coils in the palm held by my thumb. This way I can also hold both lines and the coil in one hand if I need to, say for hitching, or turning around while holding the evener with the other hand, by holding the line on that side between fingers, and the other line and the coil in the palm held by my thumb. In this picture I am obviously not working, but it shows clearly how I hold the lines in coils.

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Also it is very easy to drop the lines if I need to let out slack when ground driving. When walking in the woods driving a horse with a hitch it is very important that you have the ability to overcome variations in terrain and footing by having some way to modify the connection between you and the moving animal, so that you can stop or slow down changing your relative position to the horse. Having extra line length and being able to manage it is a very important aspect to working horses in the woods. The other important thing to long lines is getting back where you can see the log, and not be in front of it, or not close beside it.

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I also hold them similarly when on a conveyance like a sled, so that if I need to get off, or if I fall off, I will not run the risk of having the lines catch on something, and they are also up out of the gear and off the ground.

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I gather the coils by holding the lines at the appropriate length for the situation. In one hand I hold that line between fingers, place the other line in my palm held by the thumb, then comb the loose reins so they both lay flat without any twists, take a convenient length (so the resulting coil is between my waist and my knee), and lay that coil under the driving line I’m holding in my palm, at the same time giving the lines a half twist so the coil lays flat all around with no twists, and repeat till there is none left over. I then can hold the lines in the correct hand and I can pass the coil back and forth if I want to.

Tie your lines to the barn door, and practice, practice, practice….If you want to!

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I will let my lines hit the ground only when I’m in tight quarters and will stand still, letting lines follow the horses, until I want to stop to change position. If I am moving I always carry loops, as Joel suggests.

It is not a hard thing to get used to, but it is one of those safety issues that was driven into my head when I started, “never let your lines drag on the ground when you are moving”.

It goes for walking or riding. At best it can be very distracting, painful, and disrespectful to the horse if a line catches, and at worst a nightmare.

I think Geoff’s point about always trying is important. It can be difficult to perfect, but just like making the horse stand quietly before you ever hitch, I think a teamster should always have control of the lines before driving.

I see a moment in time, where several things may not line up, but as Jason says, the work is getting done.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Overstory removal of trees I’ve been thinning for twenty-five years. Not pulling stumps, going to transition entirely with livestock rotation, pigs, cattle, poultry. We may burn some brush, but most un-merchantable material will rot back into the site. We’ve been doing that in small patches for years, but finally decided that we couldn’t keep borrowing land, and need to improve the proportion of woods to open land here. Trees are 60 years old 12 – 24″ DBH and 70-80′ tall. I plan to post some pictures of the progression in another thread.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Biological Woodsman;7616 wrote:

…….Part time logging? Well given the reality of working outdoors year round we only get about 185 days a year anyway, so there are many that would say that is part time logging itself. …..The fact that we have diversified activities (other forest products related work and farming) that allow us to be sensitive to weather and ground conditions makes the work superior from an environmental perspective, which is the element of the services that make them better than conventional mechanized extraction.

Amen, Brother!

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Not only the day it is, but we need to remember how fast dis/mis-information can travel on the net. I for one won’t flinch.
Carl

[Carl Russell]

Here are a few pics, Carl

[Carl Russell]

jenjudkins;7528 wrote:

Carl, I didn’t mean adding ‘chatter’ to the horse.:p I agree that this is counter productive and dilutes communication. I meant stopping to speak to a neighbor or to some other person nearby. Its hard to believe there is a situation where you wouldn’t at least occasionally need to speak words that should mean nothing to your horse.

Oh yeh, I agree, it’s just that in my mind it has more to do with how I condition the horse to listening to me for commands when working, versus when I speak to another person. I will speak to other people, even while working the horse, but the verbal command to the horse is always accompanied by physical guidance through bit and lines.

I will stop the horses to jabber with friends who are working with me, or neighbors, but the horses are stopped, with slack lines and not waiting for a command from me.

I don’t tend to use driving my horse as a social occasion. I will talk with folks when they ride, but I’m generally poor company. A case in point was a couple of weeks ago I took the horses for a jaunt down the road to pick Tuli up from a play date at a neighbors. As we headed back down the drive I made brief query about how her day was, and that after we got them back to the main road I would let her drive. Now this is a twelve year old who thinks about horses 24-7, but she just said “Awesome”, and focused on the horses, like I was. We stood side by side silent except for a few short corrective comments on my part. It was one of those parental moments when I was both proud and humiliated, because she is so much more focused than I was at that age she is soon going to make me look like a novice.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

jenjudkins;7514 wrote:

……. I suppose adding some conversation would not be wrong and might be the next step in his training…learning to distinguish between random words that aren’t directed at him, from those that are.
……

I just wonder what benefit there would be to the horse. I am a firm believer in limiting myself to command. There is no doubt that a horse can be so sensitive to the driver’s voice that every time they speak the horse reacts, and that can be distracting if you want to stop and talk to your neighbor, but chatting with the horse while working is pretty unproductive, and un-necessary at best.

When working there is plenty of opportunity to speak the commands when they are needed. The exercise is to interrupt the cultural habit of speaking to “explain” yourself, and just being quiet, like the horse you are working with. Speaking too much can just tip the horse off to your anxiety level, and basically is a human habit that serves little purpose when working with a horse.

That is not to say that a statement of satisfaction is not appropriate, as the horse will pick up the intonation, and demeanor.

This may also be too basic, and I apologize if it is, but it seems to go along with what I wrote above. The horse is not learning the meaning of your words, he is learning to respond to your guidance that accompanies the words. We use words to denote, and alert the horse to the subtleties of the direction/guidance that we are giving. Horses can learn to respond completely to voice commands when they are conditioned to paying attention to voice for direction. The confusion comes when we use our voice for things other than commands.

Chatting while riding is a common habit, and less distracting and troublesome because of the rider’s communication through seat.

One man’s perspective, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Thanks Robert for taking the final transition so seriously. I bought a horse that bit and kicked at me when I first bought her. I was green, and she had been allowed to run the show where she had been. She had even taken her stablemate into a corner and kicked the snot out of her. I had been shown the wounds on the other horse, and told about some of the adventures she had been through, but it wasn’t till I got her home that I got “full disclosure”.

Anyway, I bought her on a one month trial, and after the first month I was so mad at her that I swore she would never leave my farm (we were going to have to work it out). 21 years later I buried her up on the ledges, a darn good horse. I learned a lot from working through those things with her.

Although I believe that a good horse can have bad habits, and can unlearn them, I think Rob made the right decision, especially given the circumstances and environment where he works. There is no place for a horse like that on a living history farm. Talk about kids possibly getting hurt.

It seems like sending the horse to an auction would be the most expedient way for Rob to move on, given the situation.

Carl

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