[Carl Russell]

Dennis, please understand that it is very difficult from both ends to explain, or understand the subtle aspects of this art. It can be frustrating when you think you have been dismissed, or misunderstood. All-in-all your posts are among some of the most well-grounded on this site.

Nothing wrong with a breather now and then.

Thanks for all you contribute, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Just a quick response to Donn’s points about “no pressure” driving. In my mind contact is pressure. If you are holding the lines up off the ground the horse will feel the pressure, although very light. It is important to have some pressure so that it can be released, or increased, as part of the communication.

The fuzzy area is how much pressure? It is clear that many of us know that we want to work with pressure so light that it may only be considered “contact”. The point is though that through some technique teamster and horse have to come to an agreement as to how that is defined. The agreement is that you don’t want to have to be “holding them back”.

This is an art, and we all have our own ways, but time is really a huge factor. On your first team it may take a lot longer than it will take in ten years after several other horses. On my farm the only way that works, is what ever it takes.

The other thing I picked up in your observations is that you are thinking about the team as if they are a unit. I think it is important to be able to think about the team as two independent animals that you drive at the same time. They seem to be comfortable working single, but in the team they work against each other, and you. That is where working them single will really help.

Carl

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Aw come on Dennis, you’ve got one of the most consistent, practiced, and experienced voices on here.

What’s it matter if nobody follows any of our advice?

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Geoff, no YOU hit the nail on the head. Even after twenty some odd years at this I still have to remind myself to take the time. I have so much to do, so little time, and so many other commitments that I can get myself into the same rut of trying to do more than I have time to do with horses that are not ready.

IF there is a difference, it is that I have been there so many times that I have developed a sensitivity to it, and have learned how to back out gracefully, and spend the time where and how I need, to get the result that I am after.

It’s not just not knowing what to do, but continuing to do what doesn’t work, that can lead to problems, and we all need to be flexible enough to take a few steps back, and do the basic work.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

My two cents are that it is difficult working with young horses if you have little experience yourself. They have a lot of energy, and when they are faced with new experiences, they look to strong leadership.

I see a strong similarity to what both Joel and CIW are saying. Trying to get work done can be distracting especially if you are working with horses that have difficulty managing their energy.

I would find more time to harness, in a more relaxed way, less time constraint, and work that requires less structure, dragging pastures etc., but create less intellectual demand on all those involved, but increase the physical demand on the horses.

One of the most important things to remember about working horses, draft animals in general, is that it requires a lot of human time and labor.

The other thing to know is that this can be a very frustrating situation, leading to a feeling of defeat when it is so much work to get so little accomplished, but it is reversible with time and consistency.

Working them single will definitely help you to reinforce the command structure with each individual horse, which is also one of the places that your leadership is breaking down. They are working against each other, and both ignoring you to some extent.

Also, you might want to get the teeth checked out, there may be a reason why one horse tends to fight the bit.

I have had good results with rubber bits on horses that pull the bit, going softer rather than harsh. The idea is that as the horse works against the bit so hard, they tend to cause more pain which deadens their sensitivity, which prevents them from feeling any reward from less pressure.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Ask and you shall receive.

New training forum in Draft Animal Power Category

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Hi Tayook, here are a few links from this forum that have covered various aspects of what you seek.

Draft animals in forestry:
http://www.draftanimalpower.com/showthread.php?t=778

Economics of horselogging:
http://www.draftanimalpower.com/showthread.php?t=93

It’s all I can do right now, kids in the drive with balls, bats, and gloves screaming for their dad:D:D:D

Carl

[Carl Russell]

It is cheaper to use additional pieces of wood attached to the bottom of the runner, so that they can take the wear. If you are good with steel, you can use steel, 1/4″x2″ flat stock with 1/2 bolts welded to it that reach through the runner. You should use a second steel shoe tack welded on to the first, so that when that wears away you still have something to weld a new one onto.

Wooden shoes are typically 3″x3″ or 4″x4″ made out of hardwood. The runner should have a straight angle cut at the front, like a sled runner, 4″-6″ of rise/1′ of run. Bolt the long shoe onto the flat bottom of the runner, then cut of the extra along the angle of the front of the runner. Take that piece, turn it over and bolt it to the bottom of the rising angle. The front shoe overlaps the back shoe where the two angles meet, and takes a lot of the wear. Countersink the bolts 2″ or more so that you can get good wear out of the shoe before the bolts start to drag.

If you build the sled cheap enough, you may not want to take the extra time and effort. Just use a couple of sturdy 2″-3″ softwood planks, bolt on some bunks, and a deck, or rails, and wear the whole thing out.

I usually use a team on a sled, and I travel up to 1/2 mile, especially on snow, and put as big a load on as I can reasonably expect, so I over build my sleds, using steel and hardwood.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

There are several reasons for at least cutting rounds and moving them by sled. From my experience cleaning up trees that are already down, it can be extremely difficult to get to them and by cutting them to rounds, the operator can maneuver the product better. The other is that with small animals you will have to figure in as much advantage as possible, such as getting the load off the ground, and stabilized on unpredictable slope.

I would build a small sledge, possibly 6 feet long, 2″-2 1/2″ thick runners, with wooden shoes, 2 1/2′ – 3′ wide ( narrow enough so you can walk beside if you are going to drive, don’t worry about trying to ride), with 2 bunks and a simple deck. The more wood you use to build it the less wood your going to be able to haul. The deck can be attached to the bunks by screws or bolts, but the bunks need to be attached to the runners with substantial bolts or pins to take the abuse from variable terrain.

I would not haul logs, such as I do on my scoot, but would load blocks or short lengths that can be easily moved by hand, possibly more like a 1/4 cord at a time. The easier the load the more work you can get out of them. With a head board or posts, the blocks can be chained down to secure them. My experience would shy away from trying to make a box as this would eventually work apart from rocking and rolling.

This all gets me to thinking about hauling the donks to the job, and finding landing areas where you can stockpile wood to make the increased enterprise more cost effective without losing the wood to hackers. If this is going to be an endeavor to increase income, the added costs will increase the need to produce, and to market. Keep that in mind.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Robert here is a pic to wet your appetite.

[IMG]

Originally posted by Bivol in Favorite horse breeds,

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Larry, your interpretation of my comments are good. I also think that by making them do the whole hill (I obviously have no context, because I’m not there) at once can be tiring to them, which can create the exertion stress that you are concerned about. If the hill is a lot of work for them, and they don’t get a chance to rest when they need it, they can become anxious, which will increase exertion stress as well.

It sounds as though you are doing fine, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Tevis, and others, I am not suggesting that anybody give up their chosen work, nor to break the law, nor to start some civil disobedience.

My points are only intended to point out that governments are temporary, but community is perpetual. When government regulation begins to limit our rights, then it makes little sense to me, to expect that the authority that has created the problem, will contribute meaningfully to the solution.

Many people refer to the constitution as such an important document, but all it does is facilitate the formation of a government that was offered as alternative to British rule. The current experiment in government was an alternative to anarchy that would have driven us back into the waiting arms of the tyrant.

The more important document in my mind is the declaration of independence, because it clearly illuminates that not only do we have rights that supersede those provided by government, but we also have responsibility to determine at what point we need to resist over-reaching authority.

I am not suggesting a revolution, just that we realize that we have solutions that lay outside of government, and that if we want to try to follow the laws and regulations that’s ok, but that we also work on invigorating those aspects of community that will give us the support we need, both in living common sense lives, and in the case that the current system crumbles.

(If an USDA agent suggested video surveillance cameras in our farm store room, I’d just cite the recent example of the day-time burglar who was reeking havoc around central Vermont, only to be stymied by the fierce response by the watchful neighbors in our community. Within days enough people had compared notes that they led to cops right to him.)

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I like the idea, just need to figure out the format/category/page layout stuff.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Just for conversation, if anyone is letting you take wood for free, it is because the removal has value to them, and they don’t want to have to pay you for the service. Be realistic about the cost/value of your time, and if you can’t get it out of the buyer, get it out of the landowner.

Cutting and splitting, at least splitting by hand, on steep inaccessible slopes is probably less dangerous than trying to skid logs. I am working with some foresters in Ecuador to help them develop a way to use the small mules used by the villagers. They, like Robert, use a lot of rudimentary techniques, including hand winches, and human power. They also use a pack saddle, which reminded my of the post by Bivol about the Balkanian loggers moving wood on pack horses. Robert your experience with packing may be a really good solution here, giving you a way to use the donkey that you already have some skill with.

You may want to review it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVfo3…eature=related

I think Rick’s suggestion of the small sled is also a good idea.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Larry, I think wagon rides are entirely appropriate for the age-range you are working with. Being on wheels the load is much more elastic, putting less stress on the horses. I think the weight of the wagon seems pretty good for the size animals you describe, and they should be able to handle it, especially empty, without too much strain.

I used a young horse, 2-3 years old in a similar manner with an older horse, mowing hay, and spreading manure. They had to climb a pretty good hill with an empty spreader on the way home. Which leads me to the only suggestion I might add. You don’t have to keep them going all the way up those hills. Stop them and rest them several times on the hills if you can. If they can pull it, they can start it, and they can hold it on the hill at a standstill. It can be very tiring for them to have to climb a hill in one effort, especially if you don’t rest them after they get up.

I also worked my horses that day, and it was warm. Mine are mature, and reasonably hard from working all winter, and I only pulled out one firewood tree, worked for about an hour total, and they were pretty wet, not sweaty, just hot from air temp, thick coat, and exercise.

Good luck, Carl

P.S. I have been thinking about sub-forums dealing with specific topics such as Jason suggests, allowing for better sorting and searching. I may get to it.:eek:

[Author]

Posts