[Carl Russell]

Hi Doug, I am going to throw out a few thoughts below, in bold letters.

Doug;7035 wrote:

…I was told that he spent most of his previous working life as a logging horse, but I can’t confirm that. …Don’t put too much time into trying to figure out the baggage he comes with, this can lead to an overall presentation of uncertainty/fear that he will pick up on.

She said he was too “forward”, but otherwise nice. This is a little “telling”. SHE may have let him be too forward.

….Anyway, he seems to be a very nice horse: he is easy to lead, picks up all of his feet, and stands still while I harness him. As Donn suggested, use these experiences to your advantage and concentrate on the parts that work for you.

I ground drove him a couple of times around the pasture and things were going great until I tried to hitch him up to a small log. He became very nervous, and from that point on I couldn’t even get him back to that side of the field. I thought perhaps it was the steel single-tree that he wasn’t used to, so I unhitched him for the day and left the single-tree out where he could check it out from a safe place.

This may be as simple as that he didn’t get the cues, or even simpler that because you have limited experience, you are unclear what you did to upset him. I tend to disregard the tendency to attribute behavior to a piece of equipment, or to a situation, and focus more on the point at which the horse, possibly displaying anxiety, looks to you for guidance (he evaluates how you are responding), and if you buy into his expression of anxiety, it will only fuel his. Then when you return to the site you are looking to him to show you how he will react instead of “leading” him into a situation that you know has no threat.

I do not want to diminish the seriousness of Ira’s comments though, if he is expressing habits learned from mishandling, it can be very dangerous, and will take a lot of patience and skill to keep your focus on the correct expected responses.

The next day I put a halter on him and led him out to where he had shied away from the log… no problem. I brought the single-tree up to him and let him smell it and I shook it all around him… no problem.

This time you were much more comfortable with him, lead rope etc.

I harnessed him back up and tried to just ground drive him out into the field, but he would spin around faster than I could keep up with the lines, and head back for the barn. Now I can’t seem to drive him at all.

His behavior requires a solid expression of skill on your part. Now he is testing you at every chance to see if you are in control.

Like Donn said try keeping lines on each side. I add another element, square your shoulders to the bit, and visualize a rectangle in front of you. Drive the rectangle. If you want the horse to go left, you step to the right. This is a graphic representation of the consistency he will look for from you. Once you get him driving, practice the steps of hitching to logs, stop , turn around, stop, back, stop and stand, wait, start again. Eventually see how he responds with the singletree behind him. When you want to hitch him again, wait until you know he is following your cues and will stand and wait for you. You can do this by false hitching, make him think you’ve hitched, but just go about driving him on to another practice.

Get someone with more experience to give you assistance and guidance.

Not being there, I may be completely off-base. I hope you can find some use in my comments. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Echoing all that Jason just posted, I will add that the conventional “market” for fuelwood is based on production, economy of scale, to make commercial harvesting more cost effective. Fuelwood has been usurped as a component of “timber” harvest, as a way to increase harvest volumes to give more incentive to enterprises that are based on large capital investments. It is very difficult to “compete” in this market because the prices are kept down by processors that develop monopolies over supply.

There is no doubt that wood has value for heat, and that people need/want to get wood to heat their homes, and that removal of some low grade material can benefit the growth of trees with high potential to produce quality sawtimber, and that draft animals can be effective and low cost, BUT crafting your production system so that your product that doesn’t pull you down by having to dump it just to get cash, and that you are working at something that advances your relationship with your animals, community, and landscape does take some thought, which usually, at least in my case, comes from experience.

I usually do not harvest low grade material in large quantities. I like to grow a forest in a highly stocked condition, reducing competition only on crop trees, so that can be done non-commercially and through “surgical” commercial harvest. For me to seriously consider harvesting wood, it has to be 4-6″ minimum top end, 24′ minimum length, sound, and easily processable.

One of the dirty little (actually it’s really big) secrets of modern timber harvest is that the harvest of good quality sawtimber actually carries the operational cost of low-grade harvest. In other words the large producers can’t harvest pulp and fuelwood at a profit either, so foresters will increase overall volume, and will “sweeten the deal” by including in the harvest sawtimber trees that have much more potential if they were left to grow, both of which add to the cost of the degradation of the forest ecosystem.

With that in mind, I rarely pay anything for fuelwood stumpage, and if for some reason there is some volume that needs to be harvested, ie. regeneration patch cut, or significant TSI, then I actually charge for my harvest, because I choose to leave the trees that would otherwise pay for a commercial cut, and my fuelwood removal is in fact an investment in the improved growth and return in quality in the future stand.

Now, I have a forestry degree from an accredited school, have 25+ years of experience, and a family farm where I can apply my trade and philosophy, so I am somewhat isolated from the pressure on most people who are trying to make their living in the woods. However, I suggest that others do not have to work for nothing doing work in a way that provides little or no advancement of skill or social responsibility.

As far as the methodology, I have mostly pretty big animals that I use which gives me some good access to a variety of sites. Using small animals will have to mimic your hand-powered operation. You may find that a small wagon, sled, or cart that can haul cut blocks from the stump will work good. If you get to skidding logs, you will need to reduce the distance, which may be best accomplished by your choice of harvest sites. There may be a way to incorporate your trail building enterprise in the off-season to create harvesting access.

I know as well as anybody that a little money is better than none, but remember that this can become a significant part of a diversified livelihood, so don’t start off by selling yourself short. Present yourself as a professional, with a service and a valuable product, both in the woods, and on the landing.

Carl

p.s. Only vague images of a potential summer horse logging/ forest management workshop series. It may be a bit more focused after I get some of this paper work of my desk.

[Carl Russell]

Here are a few pics of early spring in Bethel Gilead!

[Carl Russell]

Fuelwood is a little different in your area than in mine, but I think it is going to be consistent. I plan on keeping a wood pile going year-round on this farm to sell split to those who want to come pick it up.

I will be back to post more substance later, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Robert, and others, I appreciate the sentiments. I really believe we all need to feel comfortable here, which means we need to be able to speak up when someone is making us uncomfortable. We just have to draw the line somewhere near polite.

As far as this thread, I just spent part of the afternoon getting my woodmizer set up to saw out a small white pine post and beam kit that we will raffle this spring. I’m going to piece together a bit more custom sawing with some fuelwood to locals, and perch here waiting for a good market to open up every now and then.

I have 30 acres of pine plantation that I am clearing for pasture with red pine utility poles and well managed white pine crop trees, so, although the markets are depressed, the product is high quality so i will sell some when it looks good, after mud season.

I am going to weigh in on another topic another day when I can see straight (going on 19 hrs today), but I have been involved in a discussion in Vermont about developing biomass energy markets, and the impact on the forest ecosystem. I have a lot of thought on that, and plan to keep this thread alive for a few more posts anyway.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

First light is calm and quiet save the rushing wing-beats of the raven gathering tidbits to stash, and save, to feed to the first-born offspring of the year.

The Earth has started to breath again, each pregnant breath bursting with moisture and the smells of life resurrected.

The woodland streams are so full you can hear them hundreds of feet away, but in the shade of the spruces the snow is still deep, and ice forms as the water splashes off the rocks.

As the air on the hill warms in the rising sun, you can feel a river of cold air rushing down the gully, pulling with it a fog so faint that you swear you’ve entered another world.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

George, sorry to steal your thread with admin, but the attachments did not seem to be working earlier, but the grease monkey got under the hood, and I was able to post one just now that wouldn’t load this morning.

Try again and let me know how it goes.

I share your approach to the vet, it doesn’t sound too bad, and I wasn’t suggesting you should call the vet, just that having someone right there, poking, cutting, pointing, and describing is a great way to be better prepared next time. I know it ain’t cheap, but at least you may have some answers.

Good luck, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Yay for homeopathy!! Glad you’re getting some improvement.

Just for clarification, I always turn my horses like that even when ground driving. I square my shoulders to the bit, and drive the rectangle. I never bend the horses neck to turn him, so there is very little resistance to the turn from the collar. Just the way I learned, and practiced.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I think the photos in the text have to be posted on the net first.

You are the 2nd person to complain about posting photos, you have done it successfully before, so if you have further problems let me know, it may be a remnant of the switch over to a new server.

As far as the foot, have you had a vet look at it? We may have a lot of experience here, but some of mine comes from having my vet educate me to what I’m looking at.

I have found spots in the frog where bacteria can get trapped in the frog, causing puss, etc, but very little pain, which clear up quickly when cut open and drained.

However, if it is an abscess it could be at the early stages. It may also just be the result of a puncture wound from a branch working in the woods this winter.

Hope you can post the picture.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

We are all alike in that we all want to be understood, and similarly we are alike in our inability, sometimes, to understand others.

Just because we don’t understand someone, doesn’t mean they’re wrong.

Just because someone doesn’t agree with you, doesn’t mean your wrong, any more than if many agree with you means that you are right.

On this forum we need to care about how others feel about how we engage in discussion, and we need to be able to express our own beliefs as they pertain to our own choices, and not in terms of how other’s choices are wrong.

I think it is important that we have differing views, and that we take each other to task, both materially and in terms of how we present our arguments.

Quote:

I don’t care if you like it. I am who I am. No one forces you to read anything I write. I’ve spent the last 30 years watching what is happening and this is my opinion. One mans dignity is another mans pussy footing around.

Statements like this just aren’t going to fly here Bret. I’m going to give you some time off, to see if when you come back you can get back to “playing nice” (your words).

It is unfortunate that the views expressed by Bret have been so laced with distractive comments that we can’t have a constructive discussion because I feel like this is a discussion that needs to occur.

Hopefully we can resume, Carl

[Carl Russell]

The last post gave me a few more thoughts.

Although we often refer to it as “pulling” with horses, they actually are lifting. As you can see in the picture in the last post, the horses have lifted their front ends up under the weight of the load, and are lifting the front of the sled. The pulling, or forward action comes from the weight of their body in balance against the weight they are hitch to. This is why trace location and angle are so important to effectively moving weight with horses. If the angle of draft is too high then they can’t lift, and the load has leverage against the body weight. A horse that is crow hopping is throwing his weight forward to move the weight because he is either not confident, or does not know how to lift. This can become habitual if he is not asked to start the load often enough, having to go for long stretches working more at keeping the load moving then at lifting it. They can learn to lift with each step, especially if they are given enough opportunity.

This also leads to discussion of raising the hitch point for vehicles like logging carts. When the hitch point is raised, the power of the horse does turn from lift to push. This is why traditional hitch horses had such long legs so that the advantage of the wheel didn’t devalue the lifting power of the horse. There is significant advantage to logging carts because they can transfer direct weight onto the wheels, and reduce friction weight, but at a certain point the draft can be so high that the lifting power is lost. That is why the values that logging carts have in safety to the operator, the ability to carry tools, and the reduced impact on the ground are more important.

When ground skidding really big logs, they can roll so the chain is on top, effectively raising the draft to a point that compromises the horses power. Skidding pans, like Joel mentioned, or a go-devil, are good devices to keep the draft low giving the horse the lifting advantage.

When moving heavy loads nothing really beats a good old fashion sled. Whether it is a bobsled or a scoot the load is lifted high off the ground, but the draft is still very low (6″), and the friction is reduced to a couple of narrow wooden, or steel shod runners. Sleds take a bit more human energy and planning/ingenuity, but they are an excellent way to take full advantage of the horses ability, and inclination to lift.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I like the idea, but I would probably find the pole wasn’t on the implement I thought it was, and I’d have to go looking for it. I have grown used to looking for potential pole trees, and in the style Iron Rose mentioned I saw out a few extra each year, because I like to have several implements set up at the same time. To each their own, and if you can build them yourself, it sounds like a smooth system.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

We have a Valley 6x7x16 steel gooseneck stock trailer. I can get my small log cart in the front, with the team in, with harnesses on, standing on either side of the pole. I haul as many as 125 square bales in it, and also use it to haul round bales. I can get all four cows in there as well.

I went with the steel stock, for cash flow. I realize that aluminum will not rust, but for the back roads the welds, and door hinges, take a wicked beating. I also liked the narrower version for maneuvering the woods roads, landings, and barnyards.

I don’t make a lot of money, and really insist that equipment be supported by the operation that they facilitate. The aluminum trailer was 3x the cost of this one, and knowing that I wasn’t going to be using it 6-7 days a week to support an on-going logging operation, I just could not justify the outlay of cash. We own the trailer outright now, which is a big plus looking at the logging market, and although it is showings signs of rust forming, it is entirely within my skill level to address that. I will be “closing” it in though this summer, to help keep the weather out better.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

When we are worried about whether what we want to do is illegal, we are distracted from the life that makes us feel like we are alive, the life that makes us feel like we matter, the life that we will fight to protect.

By the time we believe that THEY actually can take away our rights, then they already have!

Carl

[Carl Russell]

ADKLogger;6988 wrote:

Thanks Carl, I have been mislead by another teamster that told me that all of the power is in the front. So when Petey crow hops, and lunges into the load this is good?

I do vary my loads by taking out branch hitches and varying where I stop to allow him to take a rest when we are taking a log hitch. How often should I push the size of the hitch and what should i look for in his behavior telling me that I have pushed him to far?

Just a side note, on our breaks I give him hay, should i also be giving him oats in addition to hay when we stop to take our lunch.

-Frank

Frank, the crow hopping shows that he is trying very hard, but it can be hard to control a horse that is moving like that. He is not comfortable using his power to move the weight. All of the tricks Joel mentioned are good confidence builders. The horse should learn to start the load by gradually pushing harder into the collar. If you keep working him on loads that he has to exert himself like that, he will keep acting that way. It is important for your safety, and the comfort and dignity of the horse that you help him to learn to start the load and move at a walk, what Jason refers to as a “power walk”. Some times in the working cadence it is hard to remember to give the horse a chance to gain some confidence. Take the time now, and it will pay off ten fold.

Sounds like he’s telling you you’ve pushed him too far. Stop him every ten feet if you want, and let him take a breath or two. Don’t worry about him getting bored, you need to show him that you know what he wants, and get him to trust that you will give it to him when he works hard. Then start to push the limit. The problem is we tend to push the limit, and THEN try to figure out how far we should have gone, and by that time we have already created an impression with the horse, so that is what has to be undone.

I know those who have a hay bag tied to the tree in the woods, so every time the horse is idle he can eat. I have fed hay and grain to mine at lunch time, but mostly these days I just work them 5-6 hours, straight through, without unhitching or feeding. If I’m on a job or working longer days, I will stop for lunch, give them water and feed a flake of hay and 2 quarts of grain.

I hope Jason doesn’t mind my posting this photo here, but it shows clearly how the horses use their hind end for power, and how they use their front feet for ballast.

Carl

[Author]

Posts