[Carl Russell]

Another key aspect to moving heavy loads is traction. I have seen my horses, pull like the dickens barefoot one day, but the next day shod with good caulks, become even more confident and relaxed. Slipping is very disconcerting to horses, and they will quickly learn that they can’t give as much barefoot, as they can with good gription. Of course they can slip when shod, but the extra confidence from good shoes can really make a difference on big timber, or when using sleds for logging.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I moved this here for better exposure.:)
Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have been out of the loop on this discussion, and will not contribute substantively, but I just want to reiterate, that although differing views are important to me, we all need to remain polite, and make pertinent responses, absent of the insulting name calling, label hurling etc., that tends to reduce the discussion to a frustrating experience.

Let that be a warning:D

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Hal;6640 wrote:

… I find it difficult to think of a person who works well with animals who does not have at least a bit of a tendency to humanize them. Even giving an animal a name is, in a sense, a form of humanizing it. ….

Do you (forum members in general) think that working well with draft with animals is a rare skill? It worries me to think that I might find myself one of these inept people when I start to work with horses at my upcoming internship.

The name is, or should be a command to alert that animal that you are speaking to it. It does not describe “who” it is.

To effectively work with animals you need to understand them as the animal that they are, and that is not “human”. This means get out of your head, and try to relate to the animal on their terms. They cannot “speak human”, so you have to learn their language.

Hal, your concern is a good indication of your sensitivity, which is a big step in the right direction.

That sure made me feel good, but I felt bad for the guy that had made such an investment in the horses, equipment, land, barns etc.

Old Kat, this unfortunately is a big problem, many many people impulsively buy into this dream, and even though they could possibly develop the skills, they are so dependent on their ability to spend money to solve their problems that they are handicapped when it comes time to invest themselves in learning the skills.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have been told that there are “horse people, cattle people, or mule people”, but rarely a mix. I tend to dispute that, as I am one who tend to gravitate toward all animals for their presence, and straight forwardness.

However, as I am asked by many people who are considering draft animals, does this species make sense, or that one?, I tend to lean toward an intuitive gravitation. In other words, if you are attracted to being around cattle, then try them, or horses, or mules, or whatever. Don’t follow someone else’s direction to over ride your own intuition.

On the broader discussion, I totally agree that there are people who are so indoctrinated into a modern mechanized approach that they have a very hard time understanding how to incorporate animal power. Although there are time, skill, and financial constraints that can justify mixed power systems, animal power really shines when the physical limitations are fully embraced and a process is simplified. I tend to be invigorated by physical activity, and find that I can relate to the use of animal power quite easily, which is quite difficult from the seat of a tractor.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Agreed:D

Carl

[Carl Russell]

jenjudkins;6258 wrote:

……Its interesting to me that those teamsters (I know) who excel in pulling (competitively/financially) don’t use their animals for anything else. My neighbor is very successful at oxen pulling and he has a big farm. I watch him spend hours with his oxen pulling big cement blocks around. In fact, their whole driveway is full of these blocks, all different sizes. It bugs me that he doesn’t have the imagination or the inclination to actually do some real work with these animals (and trust me their is plenty to do)……

Just want to say if that is who I’m thinking it is, besides being a successful puller, he is one of the best ox teamsters in the region, married to another one, and time was, when he had time, you could find him in the woods quite often with his steers.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Elke, I want to see the steer that’s attached to that foot.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I’ll attach the PDF of the event announcement.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

We can only make the hole so small, but some can figure out how to get in anyway. Sorry for the discomfort, I try to stay on top of it. I nuke at least 5 a week.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

You know, the stupidity gene? Remove yourself from the gene pool, by making a really stupid mistake, and win a Darwin Award.:D

Carl

[Carl Russell]

The only problem is if you let him go, and he develops a bad habit, you have lost the opportunity. I would aim for next winter when the snow gets deep again, but in the meantime work him by the reins, so that he and you get used to what is expected, and see how he works like Ira was suggesting.

I have hung the reins in the britchen many times for one reason or the other, but I prefer driving them all the time, because I feel that I can get more out of them that way. But if the going is good, and they are relaxed in their work, by all means they can learn to walk to the landing by them selves.

NEVER let someone else tell you how fast you need to learn, or train your horse. If you are going to be a valuable part of the team, then take the time required, and don’t compromise the capability of your horse because someone else is in a hurry. My motto is (or at least on of them) “If you’re in a hurry with horses, then you should have gotten started two weeks earlier”:D.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Rob FLory;6475 wrote:

… We are all striving for a relationship with our horses in which they work with minimal pressure. But what do we do when that is not enough? It is not really a “suggestion” when there is a correct response, is it?. A suggestion implies that compliance is optional….

Rob, remember it is not the pressure as much as it is release. When a horse follows your lead you reward them by showing no pressure. The suggestion is to follow, but the pressure escalates if the response is not acceptable. But in some instances increased pressure will not get the desired response.

In your case, if you can get the shoes on outdoors that should help, but I don’t think that that is going to translate to the stall.

I would watch the horse when you enter the stall. He must be telegraphing to you that you have reached his comfort point. Head up, ears back, tension. He’s biting when you pick up the foot, because you have gone past that point, and he is trying to get rid of you.

Just your presence is pressure enough in that case. When you enter the stall, watch for that first sign of wariness. That is the point where you need to linger, until, as Jenn described above, you get the slightest inclination that he is getting comfortable with you there, then leave. Just continue this pressure and release moving closer and closer to the foot, but never try to push past his comfort point. This horse has obviously learned that he can hurt or scare a human out of his stall, so it will take a lot of patience to get him to really trust you there.

Once he understands that you are aware of his comfort zone, and that you respect it, that you are no threat, AND you have intention for his behavior, then you should be able to push the envelope a little bit more all the time.

He may feel too much restraint in the stall, so he’s more comfortable outside.

Do you have someone at his head when outside? That may be another reason for the different behavior.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

What I didn’t make clear is that if whoa is used as a brief interlude between commands for motion, the horses can learn to anticipate the next move, and since whoa is not reinforced, they can basically learn to disregard the waiting aspect, or they learn that there is a consistent 3 seconds until the command to move forward (or whatever), and they will start to lean, or creep.

This can be true even of animals who stand quietly to be harnessed or hitched, because of the energetics of the working cadence. So, like J-L says, we need to be constantly aware of how well they are responding to the expectation.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I think that the “Creeping” that Geoff was referring to while hitched IS related to work. I see Joel’s comment to be more about regular work exercises then about having tired horses stand.

I know that even though horses tend to know how to stand, if they are not regularly given the opportunity to practice it during work, they can become creepers. I see this quite often when I am concentrating purely on getting logs out, or getting a task completed, I can slip into a nonchalant utterance of whoa, without giving them the chance to actually stand and wait.

When working, and wanting the animals to stand it is important to use “whoa” with intention, and to allow them the chance to perform it to your expectations.

Carl

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