[Carl Russell]

Geoff,
An incubator program would involve extended opportunity to develop and integrate personal material gains while still working in apprenticeship on another’s operation. The old example is the herdsman starting heifers at the farm where he works so that when he’s ready to go out on his own, he’s got his own herd started. (His/Her:rolleyes:) This is one possible answer to the disconnect thing that puts the brakes on progress so often.

Instinct is deeper than species recognition. I know that we all possess instincts that recognize connection to all other life forms. Body is a constant that transcends all animal life, and we have very similar body language to all other animals. There is no doubt that observation and experience will help to refine and define it, but allowing ourselves to accept an inadequacy in practicing an innate behavior is one of the first road blocks to overcome.

There is also an intuitive aspect to instinct that is probably even more to the point. Allowing your intuition to play a primary role in your relationship with your animals will serve you (in my opinion, mind you) well. My grandfather used to say, “Always trust your initial intuition!”. (take it or leave it, I live by it) Unfortunately we live in such a mechanical and scientific world culture now, we are conditioned from birth to disregard our instinctual intuition.

For example you mentioned Donn’s comment hit a chord with you about what you know from being a teacher of humans. I believe that to be an instinctual/intuitive revelation. Allow me. Your body responded to a familiar feeling of presentation of leadership. I don’t think you have to figure out horses as much as you need to find that feeling and bring it to your horses. Please if I am speaking out of turn, excuse me, but you know the 2-way street thing, I thought I’ld try it out.

Good luck, Carl

[Carl Russell]

First of all I didn’t mean to suggest that anyone in general, nor Donn specifically, was creating a disconnect, or even not taking students to another level, or that somehow I was stepping in to fill in where others have failed. I only tried to describe what I feel comfortable providing as guidance for others.

Because so much of what I do is based on instinct that it is very personal. I was guided by people who learned to trust their instincts, and “taught” me to find the same thing for myself. Using Geoff’s example of trying to lead his horses away from each other, I cannot adequately respond to him, precisely because in that situation I would probably run through a hundred scenarios, and techniques within my mind, in a matter of minutes, and apply what I think will work best, and if it doesn’t, I try something else. I realize that that is not how many people, work, so I find Donn’s approach very valuable.

An example of conditioning training is the “bitting harness”. I know that there are many people who use one, or a similar process to their advantage, but I never have. To me, I don’t want my horses conditioned to accept an unyielding piece of steel in their mouths. I want to teach my animals to “feel” my guidance through the bit, which can take a lot of time and many different (working) situations. My choice is to never let the animals think of the bit as anything but a direct link between me and them. So rather than letting the horse get comfortable or habitual with the application of any particular aspect, or amenity of the working set-up, I want to have a relationship that transcends those things, and is continually momentary. Not only do I know that I don’t want my animals to have conditional response, I know that I don’t need that, and I have found that by working my animals, training never starts, and never ends, because communication is continual.

As far as a Draft Animal Power Network, I think that we all are pulling together different pieces of a complex puzzle, some may have all the pieces together at once, but more likely we each hold keys that are applicable to different people at different stages in their development. I would love to see the connections we are making here lead to something productive and powerful for this community of interest.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

A few months ago I was at a workshop where several experienced folks were working with those with less, trying to work out some rough spots. One discussion came around to dealing with a horse that is acting scared, or seems to be shying, or in general not able to calm down. The example was “What do you do if your horse sees a tiger in the grass?”

MY technique is to ignore the horses expression. Not pretend it isn’t happening, but primarily not validate it. I am first saying, “what is there, is no threat to me”, and secondly ” I’ll take care of that tiger, it may be there, but trust me, it will be no threat”.

If you follow the horse and get distracted by the tiger in the bush, then progress will be nearly impossible. The same goes for nay sayers on the side lines.

Donn, my reference to pat step-by-step methods was also primarily addressing systems that condition a horse through prescribed exposures, rather than a process that develops a working relationship between horse and human. The point was that horses can be conditioned quite effectively, but those animals don’t learn how to work with the human, or vice versa.

An additional comment about helping folks who want guidance. I applaud you for trying to answer that need. That has never interested me, partly because I followed great men around as a kid, and picked up so much in vague ways that most of what I do is instinctual, and partly because I have gotten sick of trying to sort out who is really going to take what I’ve offered seriously and go somewhere with it.

What I have concentrated on is working with people who have gotten the basics worked out with guidance from folks like you, or the Baileys, to learn the work of working horses, particularly logging. My gig is seeing people learn enough about the work so that they can be effective leaders.

The disconnect that I have seen so many times is that someone thinks they can drive a horse so now they can go logging, or farming. Most of the time, at least around here over the last 30-40 years they get burned out, frustrated, or hurt, because they spend most of their time either letting the horse get away with coasting, or trying to force it to do more than it can in unreasonable situations.

Unfortunately for some this requires revisiting “old ways” when horses were worked effectively. (yes there were far too many examples of abuse, which always overshadow the good examples) It is more the culture of those people who slept, ate, and lived in a world powered by animals that we seek. The no-nonsense realistic application of animal power to meaningful work.

That should lead to a discussion of the network we are developing to get people off the ground with horse-human-work relationships that can last. If we can get enough farms together who can/will offer apprenticeship/training in combination with an incubator model, then folks can come away not only with experience and knowledge but possibly a team and some infrastructure to support their future endeavor. (I acknowledge that Jason (as well as others I am not aware of) has already put many years into just such a model)

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Nice job Donn. Thanx for sharing that with us, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Happy to have you, Happy When Hitched, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Donn, the pat step-by-step I was referring to was laid out by M&T, with certain pieces of harness, hardware, and exercises, with time limits, and over a particular time period.

I certainly have a pattern, as do you, that I use as a skeleton for my process. I have not taken the step to try to define it so another can follow it. I commend you for doing that. I think organizing an approach is different than laying out a rigid protocol. I understand your approach to be more test and evaluate, than a series of limited universal exposures.

Geoff, I thought a bit more about your question about expectations and realized that there really are two sets of expectations. 1) the expectations we have for our horses, what we intend them to do, like stand, or lead quietly, and 2) our own personal expectations of what we want to do, like buy a horse, harness it, and log off the back forty.

When I refer to managing expectations, I mean the second one. It is important to have an objective that leads to expectation, but if we let that get in the way of the reality of where we are with the horse, it will lead to frustration, and possible injury.

As far as setting expectations for the horse, it comes down to experience, and exposure. I spent a bunch of time early on, visiting a few highly respected teamsters, and watched them work with their horses. This was not as important in watching what they were doing, but what they were getting out of their horses by what they were doing. I also learned a lot by watching knuckleheads, seeing what I didn’t want.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Geoff, this is an inadequate medium for really concrete advice, but I think you answered your own question. Were you expecting everything to be OK walking down the road? If you were, perhaps you hadn’t visualized what to do if the animals didn’t share your expectation. Sounds like you had a few ideas, but you were rattled because you weren’t prepared for the way they reacted.

This is OK, IF you realize it, and work to change it (it can be a chronic problem when accepted, and leadership is given back to the horse). in other words see it as a line you worked up to. Go back and work on what you know works, and while you’re doing that, start visualizing how you’re going to take this to the next level.

Perhaps you need to become more confident that the animal WILL appreciate the reward you give them, so that YOU know that there is a reason for the horse to follow you, and not pay anymore attention to the other horse.

If you find these problem areas, that seem to be unsolvable, don’t keep revisiting them until you feel you can get at least a little way past the line, otherwise it will also become a habitual limit. But, when you do, and you get a little progress, recognize it, reward it, don’t try to get the pie, when a slice will do for now. One of the training gurus used to say “Recognize the slightest tries” (sorry I can correctly attribute that quote)

Carl

[Carl Russell]

While milking I thought of an example that just occurred a few weeks ago. The two horses that I am working currently have been together since early summer 08. Due to my overall schedule that doesn’t equate to a lot of time, but they have been used for quite a few tasks. Recently I have been logging regularly with them.

The night in question we returned to the barn as usual. I drive them into the barn doorway and stop them. This is where I have always unharnessed my horses. I do not cross-tie them. They are expected to stand. I braid the lines into the britchen with a chain stitch, then go to their heads and undo the lines from their bits, and take off the bridles one at a time. Then I release the hame clip, lift the hames off the collar, slide the collar over their head, turn around and put the collar away, then go to the rear, lift the tail out of the britchen, slide the britchen and back-pad up onto my shoulder, and lift the hames and harness off the horse. This is obviously one at a time. At this point the horse in question moves as I speak to them to go into their stall.

On this evening, my Ted horse, the first I unharness, went past his current stall and into his old one. I knew this was going to confuse him, and he turned around and headed right back toward the barn door. I calmly hung up the harness and stepped forward to direct him into his stall. When I did that, the Kate horse turned and headed out of the barn into the paddock. When Ted was in his stall I walked out into the paddock and approached the mare, at first she thought she’d keep going, but I expanded my aura (however you want to put it) and reinforced to her that I would approach her to lead her back to the barn. She stopped, and I put a hand under her chin, and led her back to the spot in the doorway. She stood there while I unharnessed her, then walked into her stall when I was ready.

Now how I got here goes back to the very first interactions that I have with these animals. I will try to outline some of the basics of my relationship with my horses.

I always put my horses out in the pasture without halter. The very first exercise we work on is accepting the halter from me. This is similar to some of the round pen work done by others, but I just do it in the pasture. I approach the horse with intention. It doesn’t matter to me exactly what my intention is, just that I am big, and motivated. Sometimes the horse may accept that, but most times they don’t. This is OK, because I want to establish a pattern of stimulus and response. As I approach, the horse may see me as a threat. I continue to approach, and when the horse shies, I establish by several methods, such as stopping when the horse stops, that
I am no threat. This says “This is ME, I am Safe”.

It won’t take long for the horse to realize that even though I am not a threat, that they can keep away from me. Any horse worth a damn will quickly find joy in trying to keep away, trying to lead me. I continue to approach until it becomes obvious to the horse that I am not following, but pushing them. At this point they may become threatened again. Again I establish by various methods, “This is ME, I am Safe”. Repetition.

Some days, with some horses, I can continue to move right through the process until the horse stands for me to approach and halter them. Other days, and other horses, I have to get to a place where it is clear that they need more time. I have to be prepared to get what I can, and show that I am willing to work with them. It rarely takes more than several rounds.

Sometimes having other horses in the pasture that can demonstrate their calmness with the process will help, but a threatened horse can also incite a riot, then it becomes an even bigger exercise of reaffirming with the others first. But this is not altogether bad, because even when working as a team an inexperienced horse can pay too much attention to the experienced horse, becoming threatened and confused, and I need to have a direct connection to each animal, and all of them at the same time, so working with them all in a group can have its benefits.

Once I can approach the animal and they accept the halter I have my communication system, ” This is ME, I am Safe, This is what I want to do, It is safe”. I just repeat this over and over, rewarding the horse with calm and safety whenever they respond positively. From walking to be led, to taking the bit, to dragging a log, to standing while being unharnessed, “This is ME, I am Safe, This is what I want to do, It is safe”.

Some horses get this once and can move on with only minimal reinforcement, others need this guidance time and again until they finally get it. Rather than focusing on specific step-by-step exposure I just keep paying attention to how the animal responds as I take them into new experiences. The problem I have with the pat step-by-step process is that horses are habitual creatures and they can become so used to the limited exposure, that they have to be hand-held every time they are expected to do something new. I want to have working horses that will follow my lead into new and different, and possibly frightening situations. So once they show me that they are comfortable with our basic communication, I start moving into any situation that I want, including harnessing and working.

So in the barn that evening I expected the horses to stand, which they did, but Ted tried out something new. It brought an element of confusion, uncertainty, which caused a break-down in a process that has habitual characteristics, but it didn’t break down the basic communication. I met Ted with calm certainty that he was OK, and was going to go into his stall, which he did precisely because he could see that everything was safe with me, AND that I had expectations for him. Kate picked up on the confusion, and apparent freedom expressed by Ted, and she tried her own initiative, but when I showed her that I was taking it all in stride, and that the same old basics were still in play, she responded positively with minimal direction (hand under chin).

The next night they stood like statues.

(An aside: Some times I find that all of my horses have followed the moose through the fence and have wondered off, sometimes miles by the time I find them. More than once I have received comments because I approach as many a 4 horses running free in a new pasture with no halters on, and one at a time I put on halters, take the leads, and head for home)

I think it is clear that this has nothing to do with hitching and dragging.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

The reason I do most of my training work with horses in harness is not because I am in a hurry, but because that is where I possess the intention required to lead. As wonderful as it looks, I just don’t have any interest in standing horseback on a team driving them through the surf like Lorenzo the Flying Frenchman (Sorry Robert:(), which I say only as a statement to show the extremes that exist in interests and objectives. For me to be engaged in the working setting provides for me a framework within which I can set expectations for my horses.

As J-L describes there is also the benefit of horse reading horse, but even when working single, I find that my intention is at it’s highest when I am undertaking a task of my own devise that has real meaning to me.

To Geoff’s question about standing, it really comes down to two questions, How to get them to stand, AND What to do to reinforce that.
1) To get horses to stand, starts when I first encounter them (this is the hidden part). I know that I can’t get consistent response from an animal unless they are paying attention to me. Some horses have been conditioned to be respectful and to look to humans for guidance, and others not, but either way, if I don’t present myself to them as a leader, they will become indifferent. Donn has described some excellent ways to accomplish this, but for me it is simply a matter of personal presentation. Whether cleaning the stall, or leading them to water, or entering the pasture, I look to them to be constantly aware of me. There are hundreds of ways that I accomplish this, and they all have to do with my personality, modified by experience. This answer has some solid points, but it also purposefully is unclear, because this is where the individual teamster will grow into their own. (not unlike the experiences with other livestock and working dogs)

2) When I expect the horse to stand, I place them where I want them, use words like WHOA, and body language based on the communication that I have been developing from day one. I expect them to stay, but am constantly aware that they may test out their own initiative. When/if they move, I simply move them back. In the case of putting on harness accessories, I will approach them with it (bit, bridle, collar, etc.) but never apply it until they remain still. Repetition and patience. I have to remind myself that there is no such thing as “sort of patient”. When they move I don’t take it personally, they are not “breaking” the rules, just asserting their own initiative. This is MY gig, MY initiative, so I reaffirm that. Sometimes, less these days, I have to go back a step or two and work on other areas where they have consistently accepted my initiative. If you want them to stand, you may be wanting to go get wood out, but you have to be willing to respond to the animal when they “speak” to you, saying “I need help with this standing thing”.

Our biggest challenges as teamsters is managing our own expectations. If we are selfish then we will never make good leaders, similar to when we are uncertain. It takes time to practice pulling together the experience to support purposeful motivation, and the sensibility to be an open partner with the animal. Finding a place where you can work comfortably with the animals can be frustrating, and hard to visualize, but being thoughtful is a great place to start.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Robert, I know what you mean. Been there too, but be careful what you wish for. I only have time to watch one out of ten posted here anyway, even with satellite. I think your cool!:D

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I would have to say that I am equally disturbed by people who seem to have many years of horse experience, but still limit their understanding of horses to humanistic preconceptions.

There is absolutely no way that a horse will ever have the ability to understand anything about the human enterprise that they are being used for. Sure they will move at an appropriate gait, or follow a furrow, or escalate energy slowly on a heavy load, because they were conditioned to it, but that in no way means that they are a “driving horse”, or a “plow horse”, or a “logging horse”, unless the human is limited in their view of the animal, and their relationship to it.

One person’s dismissal of this discussion is not enough to reduce the value that can be gained from people with different experiences sharing. I would like the topic to move back to discussion of techniques of training animals while working. I think we are fully aware that there are other people with different sensibilities and processes, but that shouldn’t limit our exchange.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

manesntails;5569 wrote:

Quote:

I can tell you that when you train a horse for anything be it accepting a halter on it’s head and leading or accepting a harness and cart and driving you HAVE TO break the whole thing down into little steps, one building upon the other, in order to TEACH the animal what you want. Just as you would not go in a stall, put a halter on and expect a horse to then lead you have to get the animal accustomed to everything one tiny step at a time.

If you do not do this, as in hooking a horse with no driving experience up with another who is experienced, you are only FORCING the green one to comply. He has no choice but to be pulled along or mimic what his partner is doing. Horses do not have a brain large enough to understand what is going on. What they do those first few times is totally blank out emotionally and are not thinking about what is happening past surviving it.
……

Although there are several aspects of this that I agree with, it is not as simple as numbing the horse to each of the tiny steps. It is more a matter of showing the animal that you are leading them into a new experience, that this tiny step is part of it, you expect them to accept it, there is nothing to fear, but that as the leader you are evaluating the response, and then continuing to lead either back to a place of calm and safety, or on to a new level of experience. These are not machines. Although the one thought at a time is a good place to start, horses are not a programmed to climb a ladder of experience and learning. In fact, I don’t try to TEACH my horses anything, I practice developing a habit that they follow my lead.

As far as FORCE, a box stall, round pen, lead rope, or what ever are all ways to FORCE a horse to comply. It is a personal appreciation of how we use them that differentiates between abuse and cooperation.

Quote:

The horse learns step-by-step each thing that is needed to become a driving horse……

I believe that it is a mistake to suggest that an animal can learn to be anything but a horse. They can learn to accept the lead from a human, and they can learn to accept the hardware and experiences of a driving horse, but they will never learn to be “a driving horse”, that is entirely a human manifestation.

Quote:

I read the post as a Gyp way of “training” which shortcuts the horse to accomodate the owner. I have seen a number of Haflingers who did not want anything to do with people, all trained the hook ’em and make ’em way. ………

There are several parts of this statement that are important. 1) that YOU read the post a certain way. 2) that you are projecting your experience into that of other people. 3) that all horses trained by similar methods are abused. 4) that anyone moving faster through the steps than you are comfortable with, is shortcutting, and that somehow that is inadequate and insufficient.

Quote:

I cannot stand to see ignorance and unthoughtfulness towards animals. To put the animal’s physical or emotional well-being second is not acceptable when it’s actually cheaper to buy one trained correctly than to train one yourself the old-style ignorant way. It takes proper training to make a good willing horse who wants to work for you. If all you are worried about is getting your daily chores done and you do not know how to properly train your horses you should buy them already properly trained instead of abusing them through ignorance and unthinking abuse.

There are so many things about these statements that are right-on, but you seem to be getting a little close to the edge of accusing some of us, which may be your right, but it has been demonstrated on this forum that it is not acceptable, and unproductive. Just because we differ in our approaches, we need not be intolerant of each other. I find it very helpful to realize that while I am willing to share my opinion with others, it is really most important to me.

Quote:

To always remember that a horse cannot think of more than one thing at a time. If you teach one thing at a time you will have a compliant horse when you are finished. If you try and teach more than one thing at a time you are asking for more than they are capable of and that is unfair to the horse.

The same thing goes for humans. There are some who have a really hard time understanding the complexities of working horses, and therefore spend a significant amount of time working on minute details that are the parts that they CAN understand, while there are others who have so much comfort with the work that they in fact can focus entirely on the horse.

The problem that I see developing from the step-by-step approach is a focus on the details, as if the “bit” is as important as the exercise of accepting the initiative of the human. When we focus on the bit, or the particular task, we miss the development of communication, that is really the product of the exercise. This is definitely what Donn is talking about, and I know for a fact that it is the underpinning for many of the old school methods. In fact, whether you want to accept it or not, it is actually what is happening as you go through the process that you describe with the Standardbreds.

I for one think this discussion can be deep and can go a long way to answering a lot of questions. I hope we can shift our focus from the details of personal choices, and use the exercise to improve our communication.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I think Geoff’s question leads to some of the points Donn was just making.

I don’t use a round pen, but I am constantly reinforcing yielding and leadership in every aspect of handling my animals. When it comes to trying to get them to stand still for example, it is not the standing that I concentrate on, but the fact that I have established with them that I have expectations of them and their physical movement.

The root to an answer to the Geoff’s question comes from the approach Donn expressed. There are those of us who look to others for guidance, those of us who learn on our own, and those who work to help others learn. We are all part of a continuum.

The value of Dennis’ original post is that it clearly lays out a type of training method that has been dismissed to some degree because there are so few people working animals, passing down skills and techniques from generation to generation, and as we are part of a generation who “get educated”, programs that stress curriculum seem to have more value.

Manes is right that just working a horse is not sufficient, but it is erroneous to assume that this method doesn’t involve more complex relationships with the animals. There are many old-timers who never needed to put into words the “relationship” they have with their working horses, because they grew up doing it, and in their generation there was no need to explain it, just do it.

I am not an expert, nor an authority, but I don’t think anyone can get work done effectively with horses without a thorough yielding and leadership relationship. The fact is that there are many ways to get that. It is after all an art.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I hope it’s not contagious!!!

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have been mentored by teamsters who were more apt to work a horse into shape than to spend time with round pen exercises. My approach has become a bit of a hybrid. While I don’t use a round pen, I do work on yielding and obedience around the barn, and in the pasture, but I tend to just hitch’em up and get to work.

Harnessing is often by degrees, bit and bridle for a while, then collar bit an bridle, then harness and un-harness, exposure and measure the response, but all the while pushing the envelope. When it comes to training them to drive, I may take a couple of short walks up the woods road, then on the town road (cars, dogs, etc.), but generally I find the best challenges I have are related to the work I need to get done.

There are some tasks like harrowing, or dragging pastures that can be less intellectual and offer more open space, but if I want to get the garden plowed, or move some manure, that’s what we work on.

I expect my animals to stand to be harnessed, and hitched, un-hitched, or to wait while in harness, and often these are things that just improve with repetition.

I have been thinking a lot about this recently, not only because of Threads like this one, or Donn’s, but because the weather has been excellent for logging on a consistent basis for nearly six weeks, and I have been working my horses in the woods regularly. This team has been doing pretty well since I started working them together last spring, which is the first time I started working the nigh one at all. Over the last month I have seen marked and continual progress in each animal, and in their “team-ness”.

This is not to say that this level of competency couldn’t be achieved by other methods, or even possibly quicker, but with this recent team I can see clearly how I tend to take on this endeavor. This is also not to say that I haven’t taken a risk that to some may be unacceptable, and to them it should be.

I will not, and do not “fight” with a horse, but I find that in the working situation I respond better to the challenges that need to be addressed. In other words, I find that I can relate better to the animals needs,when I have them engaged in the work that I expect of them.

It is important to note though that I do have many years experience with that work, and with reading and relating to the working horse, so the risk that could turn into a disaster for some, is in fact the arena that I choose when evaluating and training. My “round pen” is 150 acres of rolling hills, woodlot, pasture, and gardens, with 365 different challenges and opportunities.

Carl

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