[Carl Russell]

I tried to respond to Jason’s request to show recently posted photos from the gallery, but the closest I can get is the random display to serve as a reminder to look at the gallery.

I’m glad it is appreciated, Carl

[Carl Russell]

I’m not sure about the common sense thing, but when it’s this cold, the logs slide easy, they’re clean, and I don’t get wet from melting snow. But the horses get frosty.

[Carl Russell]

Hi Anne,
Great to have you here. Hope to hear more from you.

manesntails;4988 wrote:

…………..GO PATS!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was wondering when you go PATS, does that stand for Post Animal Traumatic Syndrome????:rolleyes:

Welcome, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Hey Erik, I’m not sure what I just watched. I don’t get exposed to TV enough these days to know much about the Onion. Was that whole thing a spoof, or did they just have on that serious guy and spoof him hard? Man the looks on that woman’s face!!! And to follow up that interview with recipes to Americanize your Tacos. Absolutely nuts. I had to laugh.

Although I have no tolerance for neglect and abuse of any animals, I’ve got to say that when we start getting PSA’s on the radio letting us know that when it’s 20 below, NO animals should be outdoors, I wonder where that is coming from, and do they really mean NO animals, or are they just reminding cat and dog owners that their pet is freezing to the porch steps?
With so many people generations, and miles, away from farms, those kinds of statements only serve to dumb down the public even more.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Just for the sake of conversation, I use the exact same technique as Donn. I have no pen, or corral, so I show the new horse the perimeter, and turn out the home horses one at a time. Every horse and situation has its own peculiarities, so I guess it might not work for everyone. I’m not sure I would bring home a horse that I thought had “issues” that might make the introduction a problem. Haven’t so far.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I’ll attach a PDF of the international map for visits to DAP.

[Carl Russell]

Biological Woodsman;4954 wrote:

…..This site is somewhat frequented more by folks in the Northeast, but there are some southerners here too. ……

Aw come on Jason;), haven’t you noticed the international contributors lately???:D We’re tapping into some awesome cultural trading going on here these days. As always, I truly appreciate your involvement, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Hi Melinda, first of all welcome. Second don’t stop rambling, you’ll be in good company here. Third, there are those who may want to be more accurate, but a “chunk” is basically a chunky horse, wide, thick barrel, not too leggy.

We welcome your input. There are a lot of folks who are feeling the same realities that you are. Check out “Depletion and Abundance” by Sharon Astyk. She is a seriously concerned parent, and has done an excellent job of putting the tasks ahead into a comprehensive model. I haven’t finished the book, but what I have read echoes many of the things you just covered.

Look forward to hearing more from you, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Work Horse Handbook, or Draft Horse Primer have good sections describing different harness types.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Gulo;4921 wrote:

Carl – have you ever heard of oxen and horses used together in a mixed-hitch? I’m pretty sure i’ve seen pictures of this. Is it hard on the oxen?

I’ve seen pictures too. Morgan hitched with a Jersey, spreading manure. But have never tried.

I used to take horses and oxen to the woods together. Rode the cart driving the horses, hitched the steers chain to the log cart or sled, and would travel like that. Twitched with the steers, and drew the bobsled with the horses. Several times I would take a load on the sled and have the steers follow behind with a hitch of their own. I’d keep them close enough so I could speak to all of them at the same time to start together. My steers were never all that fond of my horses, or I may have tried a four-up, but never really had the need anyway.

When drawing a load like logs on a sled, steers do a great job, and with that much weight they tend to get right into it, so although they typically move slower than horses, I think mixing the two on heavy work wouldn’t be all that bad.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Hi Mike, I am a SMALL scale hillside farmer/logger/homesteader so my input into your query may be misplaced, but I think you are on the right track.

I have serious questions about the value of holding onto internal combustion power units very far into the future. This is obviously a personal call, but it seems clear you are weighing the options. If you hold onto this value to use them to your advantage, you may well hold onto them until they have no value to anyone else, as in resale value. But there is also the difficulty in transitioning completely to animal power. I think this is the BIG question we are all facing. I would just throw out that as you make the transition, you also, as has been suggested, keep in mind how to downsize to more appropriately match the animal power. (If things continue as they are, though, there may be folks lining the road looking to work for their food.:eek:)

About the value added for using horses, I wonder how effective that will be in the size of the market you have, but we have found it to work at our scale, especially as we coin it “Post Peak Oil Produce”, rather than wistfully pushing the pastoral view of horse in harness. (Our garlic and potatoes come out of ground cultivated for over 20 years with horse and hand only)
The real value in the future to using horses, I think you already understand, it’s just finding the right balance of income and expenses so that you are prepared for that future when it gets here.

Congratulations on having a son who wants to work with you. That is by far one of your greatest assets, but I can tell you know that.

I can’t tell you whether you can do it or not, but I can tell you not to listen to those who tell you that you can’t.

Good luck, and keep us up-to-date.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have worked with both, bottle fed two-week old twins, and 3 month old bull calves that had run in a free stall.

The bottle fed calves were compliant from the get-go. I started asserting my initiative right away, and they learned to follow my lead unflinchingly.

We never could overcome the independence that the mother raised calves had developed. I lost track of them after they were a couple of years old, although they could be handled and driven, would follow commands, I always felt they were too free-willed to ever make fine working animals.

I also worked with a three month old horse, handled and imprinted from birth, and a 3 year old basically corralled and cared for, but not really handled much. Although the imprinted youngster was by far the best work horse I’ve had to date, the older horses seem to be more willing to take the guidance, than their bovine counterparts.

That is not to say that older, untrained animals cannot become fine working animals, just when starting out, it probably would be best to start with bottle-fed calves.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I think the differences between horses and oxen (having worked both, often integrating both teams in the same operation) is precisely that horses are hard-wired to move, and bovine are hard-wired to stand their ground. Therefore horse athletic ability is often seen as an advantage over the slower moving cattle. As Howie says though the ox, although moving slowly, is not by nature a lazy animal. Oxen will move at basically the same speed, whether loaded or empty, so in my opinion they should be loaded.

Whether working horses or oxen, a teamster can sour the animal against exertion by not recognizing the energy/wind requirements of the working animals. The best way to make a lazy ox, or horse, is to try too hard to push them beyond reason. If impatient with the working speed of an ox, the teamster can actually create his/her own worst nightmare, the balky steer. There are some smaller, lighter breeds like Jerseys that are sprite and tend to be quick movers, but they can also be very smart, and ornery, and get beyond the novice.

I think it is not productive to compare horses vs. oxen, nor to bring any pre-conceived notions to the enterprise, but to set reasonable expectations, and to work with some one who is already putting the animals to use in the type of situation that one aspires to. This way the animal can be used to its fullest capacity.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I just wanted to point out that this thread has had 2340 views. That’s awesome.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Yeah, Prior to 2008 NEAPFD we were approached by a local chapter of an animal rights group offended by our display of people forceably enslaving animals to perform menial physical tasks.

While I absolutely agree that animals can be neglected and abused for foolish human discretion, the argument can not be applied to all such human/animal relationships.

The reality is lost on them, that their generalization is supported from the comfortable position of a global petroleum-based economy, and that when we extend the same outrage that they express into other sectors of ecology, or even human culture, the solution involves the dissolution of that very structure that insulates them from the realities of humane human/animal relationships.

The trick is not to fall into a discussion with them, because their tactics, although they proclaim not to be confrontational, are all about trying to develop conflict directed at them, bolstering their position through sympathy.

Carl

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