[Carl Russell]

You have been getting a lot of good and accurate advice. The only point I will add, is that although the horse ran away, and that makes him potentially dangerous, the solution lies with you, not the horse. It is a continuous process learning how to read a horse, and perfecting the skills to lead (lead=drive/work/guide) the animal competently. In other words, it won’t be as simple as getting some expected response to particular exercises, without you also increasing your own competency. I’ll echo a few other posts, try to find a mentor.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Yeah, I saw this last night. (Had to get satellite, costs less, works better)

I am very pleased with Marco’s enthusiastic cultural exchange. I am flabbergasted by this and other incredible footage that has been shared with us.

I really appreciate the way that these animals are obviously used as a significant part of the livelihood of this family, demonstrated by the no nonsense approach to the work, and application of animal power. That is one of the most important part of the learning/teaching relationships that we need to make to become competent working teamsters, a serious commitment to making it work, and it is a commonality that crosses cultural lines.

Thanks Marco, Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have only found that separating them will do the trick. Those calves were pretty young for all that we had going on. I was trying to get them weaned, which was a bit earlier than really preferable, but I was trying to get them on solid food before they went to another farm.

They had been tied separately for the most part, but within a week of the event they had a few days on a pasture, as we were busy and chose to take the easy way to give them some exercise. Well they found a way to keep themselves busy, and try to satisfy their urge to suckle, even though they had been bucket fed from week two.

It is an important discipline, and in this case a set-back that I was not proud of. Once they get into that habit, it can take a more energy to correct it than it would have taken to prevent it. they really should have separate pens until they are well beyond the urge to suckle.

There are nursing rings that go in their noses, which have spikes to irritate the suckee, so that he won’t stand for it, but I have had mixed results, and there are other benefits to keeping and handling the calves separately anyway.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Anybody in the northeast who builds one like this, I want to see it at 2009 NEAPFD. I don’t move enough round bales myself to make one, but it looks pretty slick. Nice job, Kent.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

The size of the ox has more effect on the feet and legs, than on their stamina. Of course one can over-feed oxen that will be too fat, and therefore tire easily, or at least will be lazy.

My last pair of Holsteins weighed 2700 lbs each. They were quite large, but agile, and powerful, as they were worked regularly. Unfortunately they only lived to about twelve as one developed a nerve/joint problem, and was unable to get up when laying down. It’s a problem when you can’t get a 2700 lb animal to stand up. He stood the last 24 hrs of his life.

The problem with dairy breeds is that feet and legs have been at the bottom of the genetic priority list behind production, milk components, and body size (??????). I would have expected a few more years out of them, but I got nine steady years of woods work out of them.

I’ve been told the smaller breeds like Durhams, and Devons have had less pressure on them for milk, and therefore haven’t lost as much in the conformation for longevity of motion. Also being smaller, they tend to put much less stress on the feet, legs, and joints. I would expect 10-15 years of good work.

If the animals can remain healthy, the longer they live and work for you, the better the value. By the time I had to put down my oxen (they were twins, within sight of each other their whole lives, they owed me nothing, so I let them go together), they and I moved as one. I led them by the horns with no halter, drove them 1/2 mile to pasture loose with whip only, could drive them yoked through a single barn door, backing one out, turning their heads through, and walking the second one out. It would be worth your while to get a pair that can have some longevity, because down the road the investment will be paid back many times over.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

CharlyBonifaz;4401 wrote:

off topic

why is it so often I keep hearing this? why are always women the ones that get started, find out and try and then have to convince their husbands to give alternatives a thought……
elke

Careful, Elke, I’ve scared away two women in the last twenty years because of my staunch commitment to draft animal power, and “alternative” livelihood. I even had to pick up the slack on a pair of Holsteins that turned out to give me nine good years in the woods (longer than the woman:eek:).

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I will have to admit I have never kept a bull beyond 2-3 yrs old. I have no need, the genetics are not that valuable, and they will definitely sour.

By my posts, I did not want to indicate that I thought bulls could be warm and fuzzy. I realize their extreme danger potential, and never want a friendly bull, just one that has been handled early, and well, and educated to have respect for my superior size and power (which I know by his nature he will eventually want to challenge) which I constantly reinforce, and escalate, while keeping respect instead of fear. When it becomes clear that the fear/respect line is getting blurred, it’s time for the hot lead injection.

I expect that all of my animals be approachable, and manageable for a wide range of reasons, like vet care, emergency management, moving to/from pasture, and slaugther.

However, working animals for draft, tap into different levels of dominance and cooperation, that are not at all like those of animals kept for breeding or meat. Including the physical exertion, the restriction of movement due to harness/yoke, and the significant elaborate command/response protocol, I think that persons who are determined, and skilled, can realistically keep bulls that can perform more than one purpose. Determination, and skills are a huge part of any success in this regard.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I knew as soon as I wrote the comment about computer programming that some wise-acre would throw out that comment, Elke!

One of the reasons I told the story of the working bulls, was I was discussing using my steers for more farm work as I had lost a horse, and was weighing the value of using britchen so that they could more successfully replace the team of horses. The farmer was showing me how he had hitched britchen to his yoke to work the bulls because they were de-horned.

This would be an option that may reduce the “danger” level. Any bovine that learns how to use their horns as a weapon can be extremely dangerous, and bulls are no doubt pre-disposed to this.

I am surprised that you would be considering Dexters. They seem like good animals for small acreages, on the surface, but my experience has been mixed. I have never owned them, but I have to say that the ones I have cared for, and interacted with have got to be the most ornery, and unco-operative animals I have ever experienced. And you have to use a baking dish, and sit on your butt on the ground to get low enough to milk them. I’m sure that regular handling may develop a better outcome, but I have found so much better results from other breeds.

We raise bulls from time to time, as a result of our breeding the milkers. We keep them around just for meat, I never train them to work, but I insist on the same manners that I do from my working animals. We handle them from the get-go with rope halter, being approachable in the field, moving into and out of the barn. We let the kids play with them until they get 4-5 month old. To this day, I have yet to have any different results with a bull than with a steer. They mind and understand.

A problem may arise though when a bull is left to their own devices, especially early on. We had to borrow a bull last summer, as we were unable to get our cows to show adequate heat. He was an easy going 1 1/2 year old when he came, but was driven into my trailer from a field full of heifers. About the third time I came into the pasture to take the cow out to be milked, he turned, put his head down, and pawed the dirt. I let him know in no uncertain terms that the next time he did that, he would be looking at the world through that tight little hole under his tail. After that it took me several weeks before he learned that I was no threat to him as long as he didn’t face me like that. After the summer here I still had to get him into the trailer to handle him, but I could halter him, and lead him, but never turned my back on him.

Any way to keep bulls around you will need to be committed to the breeding program, and seriously committed to having them as working animals, or at the very least manageable. Otherwise, Howie and plowboy are right-on, get one when you need it, use it, and slaughter it, or AI.

Good luck, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Welcome Erin, let us know how you progress toward your initiative. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Hey Mike, great to see you back here.

I have to agree to some degree.

In fact I never trust any animal.

This does not mean disrespect them, and it certainly does not mean fear them, but know that they are not computer programmed, and are completely unpredictable as such.

This is also to reiterate that it is more important to be trust-worthy, than trust-ing.

This being said, there is no reason why a bull can not be worked with from calf-hood to understand the rules of performing work.

One of the old-timers that I used to buy hay from told of having to take over as interim farm manager at Vermont Technical College in the 1950’s. Among the many problems that he was charged with fixing, was a low conception rate. At that time they were still keeping bulls on the farm for the breeding program. He decided that the problem was that the bulls were over-fed and under exercised. He yoked them (they had never been trained for draft) and took them to the sugar-bush, skidding wood all winter, and gathering sap. Next fall there were calves dropping from nearly every cow, and they had some pretty well-mannered bulls.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Thanks Robert,
We are tapped into those same sources that you mention. We are in the process of creating a non-profit network as an organization to sponsor both the DAP site and NEAPFD, and those grants may well apply to that.

As to funding DAP, we continue to get checks, (thanks Matt, Jim, and Robin) so the “fund-drive” method seems to be working great right now. Also, I will explore, in January, the sponsorship offer that I received this fall from a local organization. We’ll see where that goes.

Basically, for me/us, being small-scale animal powered farmer/loggers, we don’t want to turn into grant writers and website administrators. We are committed to helping this resource to develop, but it has to be valuable enough to the broader community so that we all pitch in somehow to make it viable, which is happening right now.

Thanks for your interest, and thoughtful suggestions. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Great Sabine, Good to have you! I think it would be cool to have more in-depth discussion of draft/pack goats. Welcome, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Absolutely, Elke.

If the pole is high then the back chain is tightened, if you are skidding off the ground loosened. With the NS head yoke, the pull is on a pin in the end of the pole, or tug, that is hitched into the chain loop on the front of the yoke. Pulling here tips the head forward, adjusting the length of the chain in back limits the amount of forward roll, also the angle of the oxen’s forehead.

As the land changes, so does the angle of draft, so the animals also have to learn the best angle, and you will see them “rocking” their head to zero in on the best angle.

In the first picture you can see the cattle pulling under the draft, possibly the hitch in this case is actually from the back of the yoke. The pole may be fastened tight to the yoke, which can work too, if the correct angle is cut on the end of the pole.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

It is controlled by the angle cut at the end of the pole, or tug ( a short piece of wood). Generally, at least with the Nova Scotian head yoke, there is a chain on the front of the yoke, and one on the back of the yoke that cradle the pole, or tug. Lengthening, or shortening the length of the back loop of chain allows the yoke to tip forward until the chain is tight, and at the right angle. If there is nothing at the back of the yoke, it would continue to roll right over as they push.

I hope that explains it, I have no more attachement space, and no photos on the web to post.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Howie;4220 wrote:

For Rod

If the britchen is adjusted right it will sure help to keep the yoke in the right position. It is worth it’s weight in gold just for keeping the steer between the traces. I gives you a better place to carry your traces and such when you are not hitched to any thing too.
A good single ox can do it all !!

Howie, all this talk about britchen reminded me of the set you donated to NEAPFD. I just checked with Wendy, and she said she just sent it to someone in Florida. It was very generous of you, and now someone who will use it, can put it to use.

Thanks, Carl

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