[Carl Russell]

I feed good first cut hay, a bale a day, and Pacer sweet feed 12% prot-7%fat 10-15 lbs depending on exertion, salt and kelp by the tablespoon in the grain.

Jen, I have noticed the same with tank warmers. I wondered if it was a low voltage shock, because when I unplug them, they will drink right away. I lead my horses to water much of the time, if they are working, or in the tie stalls so I unplug the heaters first to ensure consumption of water.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

As many know, we put a lot of effort into NEAPFD this year so we were distracted from holding any horse-logging workshops at Earthwise, but I have gotten many inquiries, so it looks like a good possibility for sometime next summer.

It usually involves 3-4 days, starting with Game of Logging (chainsaw safety), then introduction to the woodlot (silviculture, skid trail layout, determining product, etc.), and then application of animal power in timber harvest ( directional felling, equipment choice and use, skills and techniques, etc.).

The last time we ran it we held one day classes on 3-4 successive weekends. This time I have a list of interested people so I will probably ask for a schedule that meets the interests of those wanting to participate.

It is my firm belief that there are so many things other than the horse going on in horse-logging, that to be effective teamsters working in the woods, we need to be skilled at the work before we can really get very far, so I try to focus my program on the work of working horses in the woods.

I’ll keep you up to date, Carl

Certainly the MOFGA Low Impact Forestry workshop is a great opportunity as well. I will be there this year too.

[Carl Russell]

medmonson;3387 wrote:

Well I tried to move her butt with the finger and elbow in the side which made her lean into me more. Gave her a tap on the hip with a piece of driving line and she moved over and stood still. Did the same today with same result. I guess she decided I was serious and should get with the program.

Sounds like you have made some progress, but I’m a bit concerned that you were unsuccessful with pressure. There should be no way that your horse resist pressure in the flank area, between rib and hip.

This is a very soft and sensitive area, and quite commonly used as a pressure point to get a horse to step over. The fact that she pushed back makes me wonder if she won’t do that again, even after you get her to step over with your tapping method.

I think you need to have respect from her when you are next to her. Try to remember that you need to be bigger than her, at least in her mind, and that she has no business pushing against you.

It is important that once you undertake an effort to push her over that you not let her get away with standing still, or worse pushing back. That is why it is important to use the soft part of the flank, using your hand like a blade (several fingers together for extra rigidity), push until she steps over. She will not be able to resist you.

Keep up the good work, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Greetings Steve,
Glad to read of your interests to return to the woods with horses.

There are at least a dozen horse-loggers who are at least semi-regular contributors to this forum, possibly more in the ether, not including those who log with their horses as an aside to whatever else they do.

There have been some good discussions about practicality and profitability in several categories including sustainable forestry, equipment, and horses.

Please feel free to add to them, or start a few more. There are also many good photos in the photo gallery as well.

Enjoy yourself, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Carl Russell;3259 wrote:

……I know there are people who use the fear-adrenaline-run-power equation for pulling contests, but working horses on heavy loads in the woods, or on the farm, is quite different that on level ground in a pulling ring, and there needs to be control. The photo that Jason posted on the gallery recently shows that very well. There is a team that is putting all they can into that effort, and there’s a very relaxed teamster (JR) just letting them do it. They have all been through that transition together many times……;

Carl

The more I thought about this statement, it may have seemed a bit unclear.

I did not mean to say that Jason had a team of wildly fearful animals, rather the opposite. It is clear to me that they are very comfortable with the situation.

And I didn’t mean to say that he was just “letting” them do it. I was more importantly referring to his relaxed demeanor, and that they were responding with a very high level of adrenaline freely because of a level of trust they have for the teamster because of the continuity of contact, and because he has conditioned them to follow his lead even into that place of extreme exertion.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

OldKat;3302 wrote:

… While I don’t try to figure out what stimulus to expose them to (in Carl’s words) I do try to take advantage of the free resources that are right under my nose to give them a broader exposure to real world situations. ……

If we were working several hours a day to a full day like Carl and some of the others on this site do I wouldn’t even consider the need to do the things I mentioned. In my situation it is a reasonable alternative.

I do much the same thing. Although it mostly happens in a working setting, I didn’t mean to insinuate that the type of exposure you undertake is somehow less valuable. I can absolutely see the value of the endeavors you undertake.

I think my point was more that it is not the actual stimuli that you expose them to as much as it is the act of YOU (me/us) exposing them to something purposefully. It is the replication of you taking initiative and introducing them to a situation that will distract them, so that they can learn to find you, their leader, in all the noise, to practice and reaffirm their trust in you. School band, school bus, chain saw, falling tree, walking, cantering, extreme exertion, or chasing bull, no matter, just horse and teamster.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

It’s a spammer trick, post your own links please, and THANX for readeing the rules.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

That’s why they’re there. Welcome John, have fun, Carl

[Carl Russell]

I mad a few crafted mirrors a while ago using wood, and a moose antler. The mirror I used was made with a plexi-glass backing and I could cut it with a coping saw. I had a friend who had a bunch of it, so I don’t know where you would get it, but I think it was made for passive solar building design.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Congratulations Jen,
Nice job!!!

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I think it is also important to make yourself known. Speak to the horse and let them know you are there, and that you don’t appreciate being squished. You don’t have to bark, just speak admonishingly to them.

Many times the horse will step out of your way to be able to look back at you.

Also, I have had good luck with the soft pressure point in the flank, just behind the ribs and in front of the hip. Very little pressure here should get them to step quickly to the side.

If the index finger doesn’t work, use the elbow, pushing not jabbing, in the ribs for the front end. When you get the intended result, move to the lighter touch of the finger and reinforce.

It will also help if you work on this every time you are near your horses, rather than waiting for a misdemeanor to try to correct it.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have a New Idea mower with a 5 foot bar that I added shafts to so that I could mow with the mare alone. I did nothing to the mower, just cut off the pole and added an A-frame and shafts. She was a good sized mare, 1800ish.
Carl

[Carl Russell]

As of right now the D-ring Video is VHS only. I am pretty sure if you contact him, he can send you one.

As far as the harness, my needs are pretty low so I don’t know ALL the sources, but Meader Supply Corp. of Rochester NH does sell them, and has photos of them in their catalog.

It has been pointed out in this thread, and a couple of others, that the D-ring harness has some good attributes to offer, but if not adjusted correctly, it will offer little more than any other.

Purchasing the video would be a good investment to go along with harnesses, but certainly if you are only in the consideration stage, it would be an even better investment as it will answer many questions, and help you to decide if it is the harness for you.

Take care, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Greetings Julie. Nicely said!!!
Carl

[Carl Russell]

I was thinking a bit more about this. Although I never have the need to drive at high speed, I do engage a high energy forward gear when pulling heavy hitches of logs.

As I thought about the concept of fear and energy level, it became a little clearer for me. I don’t think about my animals being scared. Yes I can see the nervous activity, but at it’s root it is adrenaline release, the fear may be real for them, but only until I show them there is nothing to fear.

I can’t afford to wait until a particular situation, to interrupt, or condition a horse to the specific stimulus, so I am constantly conditioning them to de-escalate. Starting with a hoe in the barn cleaning manure, or at the water trough, if they jump or shy, then I work on it right then. Rather than letting them get numb to a situation, I want them to learn to come down from the heightened sense of response, right then, under my guidance. Sometimes I only make the smallest gain, but I follow a quote I heard years ago,(I think it was John Lyons) “Recognize the slightest tries”, and make a point that this is a lesson that they are learning from me.

In this way, I never try to guess what stimulus I may need to expose them to, because I have them conditioned to follow my lead. First time the school bus goes whizzing by, yes they pay attention, but they pay more attention to me. Then when it comes to the hard pushing of heavy loads, when they have to raise their adrenaline level to a place in an experience where they have never been, I let them get fidgety and flighty, and work back down to a relaxed state.

There are times when they can put on quite a show, but “so what, there’s nothing to be worried about” (my thoughts), and they know that I expect them to calm down. Eventually, we can turn on the adrenaline and turn it off without any fear.

I know there are people who use the fear-adrenaline-run-power equation for pulling contests, but working horses on heavy loads in the woods, or on the farm, is quite different that on level ground in a pulling ring, and there needs to be control. The photo that Jason posted on the gallery recently shows that very well. There is a team that is putting all they can into that effort, and there’s a very relaxed teamster (JR) just letting them do it. They have all been through that transition together many times.

I run into a certain mind-set among people with animals that they need to train them to do certain things, or accustom them to certain situations. I realize that it is a convention, and it obviously works, but I also believe that a successful communication process can be established that will transcend any situation, even a really scary completely new experience. It is also fundamental to actually performing work, because there are times when you just have to do something for the first time, and your expectations for completion need to be high.

So as little use as I have for cantering horses in harness, and a preference for practical application, I can see how the exercise has similarities to things I do with my horses.

Carl

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