[Carl Russell]

Some of these questions have been answered in other threads, but the question of relative power is complex.

Animals of different sizes, obviously have different potential for foot/pound exertion. But a ton horse, or a calf, standing still, have no power. There is potential power, and that is quite different, but to apply that power takes skill on the part of the teamster, and conditioning of the animal. Some people can get a huge amount of power out of cattle, and others the same from horses, and mules of equal body weight. That is why there are pulling contests. Depending on what you expect to do at the other end of that 10 foot pole, I’m sure that horse, mule, or ox would work.

There are probably others on this site who know things such as the average percentage of body weight that an animal can be expected to pull, but I never keep track of those things. I generally just pay attention to how well my animals are doing with the load they are moving, and work from there. The same goes for traveling speed. I have little need for those numbers, but I know there are those who do, and they can answer those questions.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

It’s difficult to understand what exactly you are looking for. Your chosen time frame is odd, because it actually coincides with significant decline in the use of draft animals. In recent decades there has been a lot of improvement in modernizing horse equipment for farming, particularly by Amish manufacturers. If you visit the Horse Progress Days web site, you will probably get a good list of current equipment.

As far as equipment for oxen, pretty much any piece that you use with horses can be used with oxen. The fact that very little has changed in terms of the basic equipment also reflects the many many years that went into refining designs that still fulfill the original purpose.

If you refine your question, there may be others on the site that can speak to more detail.

Thanks for posting, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Thank you Rod, Andrew, and Erika, these are all great points.

From my perspective, I do not want to become a censor. I believe in free speech. I want every body to know that they can feel free to express themselves here.

I recognize that each of us has buttons, and there will be conflict. I am not apposed to it, but it has very little value for this site, except that we may all learn some valuable lessons on how to move forward.

If you feel offended, please remember that you have the right to express that feeling, and if you do it without returning the offense then maybe you will get an apology, and further constructive discussion. We all need to find ways to quickly return to polite communication. It is the #1 rule, and participation here is dependent on it.

As administrator, I have let a lot of “infractions” slip, and I have let go of some toned-up comments myself, this site is not going to be communication utopia. I am not made that way, and I don’t have time to manage it that way. I hope that we all can advance not only as people interested, learning, and sharing about draft animals, but as humans in a community.

The problem will arise though, and as administrator I don’t see my role as dictator, so rather than nuking someone off this site (other than for repeated swearing, and spam) I am willing to have a confrontation in front of all of you, so you can pass judgment on the situation.

The recent situation was purposefully undertaken in an attempt to galvanize an understanding of our community communication guidelines, and to show that I don’t expect perfection, just reasonable interchange, AND that there is some one here trying to ensure that.

Wholeheartedly supporting Rod’s post, I also want to say that I think it is important that we acknowledge the good stuff when we can. It should also be noted though that just because something good hasn’t been acknowledged doesn’t mean that it is in the same category as those pieces not worth noting!!! I know that I can improve in that area, as time permits.

But I also think that it is important that there be some taking to task. We can’t react to this situation by fearing that the only things to be posted are accolades. We all grow from constructive criticism. The key is to work on the constructive part.

We all also need to express our own beliefs. It is important to own your own perspective, and not only not use “you”, but learn to use “I”, and to include in our statements some way to claim the comments as individual.

As an aside, there is capacity on this forum for a group of moderators to be formed, with whom “infractions” can be discussed in private, so that any action or response can be ironed out by more than one person. My own perspective on that is that although I may not do a perfect job, and it is extra time, I really don’t want this site to be “moderated”. I am willing to share “control”, but at this point I like this model, where we all just muddle around out in the open.

Thank you all, including lurkers. Any and all feed-back is welcome.

Moving on, Carl

[Carl Russell]

You’ll want to wear your sneakers if you have Jersey steers. I tried to raise a couple of pairs, but they are slow to grow big enough to perform meaningful work, and they MOVE.

Holsteins are well mannered, and grow to working size quickly, although they get very big, 2500+ each, which may be too much for some, good in the woods.

Short horns are definitely a preferred breed. Not too big, but big enough, and not so dairy that the body type is excellent for working. They are in high demand in New England so I have yet the get any.

Currently I have Holstein x Normandy steers. They are a nice thick, short legged version of my old Holsteins. I’ll be surprised if they top 2000 a piece. The attitude is pretty good too.

You can make oxen out of any breed. I really depends on what you can get a hold of, and what you expect to do with them. I tried to mow hay with the Holsteins, but they were too slow. They were excellent for logging and plowing, or moving sleds, same speed loaded or empty. I often thought the Jerseys would make a quick little farm team, but they ended up as well behaved grass fed beef.

I can’t find it now, but I once saw a picture of a farmer, circa 1940, spreading manure with a Jersey hitched with a Morgan, moving right out.

Good luck, some Ox people are very specific about breed, and hopefully some one can chime in with other comments.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Thanks Neil for posting these pictures. I really appreciate them for several reasons.
1. They show a farm that is well managed, by someone who is serious about his work.
2. They show and excellent crop, the result of a series of well timed and effective tasks.
3. They show a practical example of using draft horses that a major portion of those interested in farming with horses can actually use.
4. They show the well trained use of equipment in good shape to perform a chore done with an eye toward excellence.
5. They show well conditioned horses in top-notch outfit.
6. They show the teamster working alone.
7. They show, although the teamster would NEVER suggest this, and actually teaches NOT to do this, a team of working horses conditioned to stand without someone holding the lines so that the teamster can accomplish an important task.

Thanks Neil, I hope to see more contributions like this one, Carl

[Carl Russell]

This thread is closed to further posting.
Thanks, and sorry.
Carl

[Carl Russell]

I don’t think that horses equate fear with running, as much as they may equate running with fear. In other words they charge around the pasture for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with fear. Although they may be inclined to run when scared, consistent work interrupting that reflex will have its affect in any situation, and I think it is erroneous to assume that when they run they become scared.

I can see how a person who was inclined toward the challenge would enjoy raising the energy level of the horses, and extending their skill level into new and more challenging experiences as a way to strengthen the working relationship.

I personally have never had a reason at my level of enterprise to take my animals beyond a trot.

That being said, I have had several instances where my horses were scared into running, and I was able to maintain the exercise of my initiative with them, even though they/we had never practiced it before.

Once while spreading manure, one of my oxen pushed through a gate from an adjacent field because he became so excited by the activity that he needed to investigate, and the charge on the fence was low or something.
He approached us at a gallop, and began dancing, throwing his head around and false charging.

This was extremely unnerving to the off horse who was getting most of his attention. Even with this stimulus the horses stopped when I said whoa, and tried to stand, but the steer was wound up by then, and actually nearly hooking the mare.

I knew that I could calm the steer if I got down, but the horses were justified in not trusting him enough to want to stay still for very long. However, they did remain standing until I felt the risk of physical contact was too high, and I spoke to them to move before they went on their own.

They definitely wanted to run, but I kept them at a brisk walk turning away from the steer, until I was able to pull the lever for the beaters which finally was enough to distract the steer completely.

After a few hundred feet without being chased, the horses resumed their normal demeanor, and when we reached the bar-way they waited calmly for me to close off that field so the steer wouldn’t follow us.

It’s just one man’s experience.
Carl

[Carl Russell]

I realize that this has gone far enough, but running the risk of bordering on ridiculous, I will make one more post before I respond privately.

:confused::confused::confused::confused:
Neil, your posts last night show that you have little more interest than stirring up a hornets nest.

My management of this site is not about me. It is about you and all of the other members. This situation is not about me and you, and certainly it’s not about how good you are at what you do, it’s about the site, and the basic rules. Unfortunately you can’t seem to separate the two.

Perhaps I haven’t said enough about how much I value the good work you do, such as some photos I saw of 3 abreast on the swather. It’s great, but I see hundreds of others doing similar work, and I can also see value in the hard work and efforts of beginners.

After 25 years I have no need for more than a team working in the woods and on a very small farm. I’m totally fine with that for many reasons. It, however, does not diminish the value of the lessons I’ve learned.

My disinterest in show hitches, and large farm hitches has nothing to do with you, nor with safety issues, or any of the assumptions that you defensively respond to. It’s purely a personal choice, I have no interest. I realize that others do. Fine. Why does that hurt so much? Why can’t you share with us some of the challenges, or the thrill, or try to enlighten us?

I just don’t understand what you expect to gain from berating me, or anyone else, or challenging us to prove our skill. As if that makes you better. I own my own skills for my benefit, and although I try to share my perspective with others, I don’t care if others agree. In some cases I just use my opinions to get others to share their’s.

You have missed the point. If I wanted to ban you, all it takes is a push of a button, and I do it several times a day to get rid of all kinds of unwanted posts. I realize that you do contribute material and experience that is one of a kind, and it has its valuable, but I will not let you hold that against me.

Please Neil, let this go. Take it as a warning though. We need to have more constructive interchange here. If you feel you have to lob negative comments, please use PM or e-mail.

I’m done.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Neil,
You may be a high-headed pony, and it’s not that I don’t appreciate spirit, in fact I’ve given you plenty of line, but this is my hitch, and there are some pretty simple rules to participate. From the thousands posts by others, it is clear that most people accept the number one rule to respect each other by posting thoughtfully.

The fact is that I have never attacked nor insulted YOU personally, only challenged your assumptions, and rude responses. Let’s face it not every body is going to be a subscribing member of the Neil Dimmock Fan Club, but it doesn’t mean that our interests, thought processes, or experiences are less valuable than yours.

The fact that I don’t value SOME of things that you do, IS my own view, it has nothing to do with YOU, and I never made mention of YOUR choice, only the fact that I see no value in the display. I’m not really sure why you can only see yourself in the picture, but there is a lot more to comment on than just how good you know you are at what you choose to do. I don’t take your comments personally, why should you, mine?

If it’s in the water, you ought to bottle and sell it. I have never known of anyone who was as accomplished as you. Every decision, or choice you make is the right one. Nothing ever goes wrong at your farm, and you have so much experience that you are the best at everything that you do. Truly beyond human capability. Really, bottle that water.

Otherwise, get down off that high ride of yours and contribute at a human level. You obviously feel safe enough to rant, rave, and insult. Now let down your guard and be a little more honest. I am no different that any body else, some days I’m more or less defensive, or aggressive, depending on what I’ve eaten (or whether the stool softener works), but this community must be based on the acceptance of differing views. Although I am willing to accept that your inclination is to be defensive and dismissive, that is clearly not the community experience that the rest of us are working to create.

Some might argue that by confronting you, it is I who is creating the negative environment, because I should be able to see that you are only going to escalate the situation. However, I see my job as overseer of this site as needing to be the one who says what nobody else wants to say.

It is your choice whether you decide to modify your behavior, back up your skill with content, and be willing to advance the discussion in a way that includes other views. If you continue the need to dismiss dissenting views as inadequate and insignificant, then you will have to take full responsibility for the image that you create of yourself.

Feel the bit yet?

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Neil Dimmock;3201 wrote:

Some can and some cant, that kind of attitude kept people huddled in caves for to long. I guess you have never left home or have seen the Texas thunder hitch!! OF COUSRE WE TEACH HOW TO DRIVE!! maybe you need a class
Neil

Neil, You have offered a lot of substance to this website in the form of photos, but rarely in your responses to questions or challenges do you offer anything more than defensive personal condemnation of character.

It is clear to me that although you do get a lot of good work done with your horses, there is a large degree of self advancement involved with your presentation.

I think that Michael’s comment are legitimate, and if you have some good response that justifies your objective, then lets hear it.

My own personal experience has been under the tutelage of conservative teamsters whose main objective is practical application of animal power, so I have very little interest in shows, nor demonstrations of “skill” that push the envelope to extreme.

Perhaps there is some value in those types of displays, but it escapes me. I’ld love to hear why you believe otherwise.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I like the “Forum Sponsorship” because it gives upfront exposure within the current structure of DAP. Second is the yearly fee (sponsorship) for a forum space home page ad.

I also want to extend thanks for more donations from Andre’, Rod, and Dan (Iron Rose). I’ll have to tally it all up, but we have made a nice run at our first yearly fund drive.

Thank you all, Carl

[Carl Russell]

As we get closer to a local food economy, it will become more and more cost effective to grow your own food, and the food producer will still be in the same quandary of how to price food based on its real cost, because consumers will only pay what they can afford to pay, and that will never be as much as it really costs.

It is one of the biggest questions for me, as far as developing sustainable land-use systems. Basing profitability on the abundance of the farmland, and the skill, or generosity of the farmer, rather than on cost-reflective revenue, creates pressure against the land. Developing food production systems that are the primary source of income also places significant emphasis on the productivity of the land, and the farming system. Combine these factors, and it can be a recipe for mining productivity out of the land, whether you use horse, hand, or tractor.

A land-base used to produce food, or fiber, for a family, clan, or client-base, or community, who contribute fully to the costs of production, can be invested with the accumulation of biomass, nutrients, and energy that it needs to produce sustainably.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Marchand,
Thanx for posting those links. Very nice display of a truly interesting life.
Carl

[Carl Russell]

You could cut the stitching, replace the snaps, and restitch using an awl, or if you can’t sew, use copper rivets. You may also just mail the straps off to a harness maker to get them repaired.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Jonny,
Some things to remember are that wildlife management is different than game management. The wildlife species that we tend to want to hunt are not specifically forest denizens. Turkeys, white-tail deer, ruffed grouse, and snowshoe hare, all thrive on a mosaic of grassland and forest, with their most preferred habitat being early stage transitional forest. As the forest matures it offers advantages as cover to many other species, and not so much for our game animals. This is not to say that managing for game is bad, it just should be recognized that a mature forest, managed to provide longterm benefits of a forested ecosystem will not meet the goals of white-tail hunters. (Moose hunters, more likely)

Another thing to point out is that “worst first” does not necessarily refer to the trees that are cut, as to the trees that are left. In other words, leave the best. Or looking at it a bit differently, harvest the trees that are competing with the best. In this way, not all trees need to be cut, only the ones that are in direct competition with identified crop trees (trees left to grow). In the case of the old wolfers, if there is no direct benefit to neighboring trees, then they may not need to be cut. The ones that should be removed could be girdled, and allowed to die standing there, providing another tier of habitat as they fall down in pieces over several years.

When choosing crop trees, you can look to all diameters present, finding the best future stand, and growing it. Un-even aged stands can be difficult to manage, precisely because huge trees tend to compromise a lot of subordinate trees in their understory, especially when it comes time to harvest. It is always challenging to come into a stand that has not had any work done to it for years, as many times, they are out of balance, and it will require a period of time to institute some protocol that you can adhere to advance you goals.

Cutting fuelwood is a great place to start, because it will give you a chance to start releasing your quality stems and it can be a long term product of a hardwood stand. As you remove your low grade stems, you immediately increase the value of the residual stand. This is an important factor in sustainable harvest, because when there is more high quality stems in a forest, the harvesting is more profitable, therefore the harvests can be lighter, and more often. This will be important especially if you are intending to supply material for construction, as you will not want to harvest ahead of yourself, removing trees before you have an intended use. Harvesting more often also allows you to create a continuum of forest transition, where you can provide areas of early succession to establish new regeneration for the future stand, at the same time benefiting your game species.

One last point. As far as the reverse strategy of cutting the large trees first, it is one of the most misdirected habits of our modern culture. If you had two bank accounts, one with $5 @ 6% and the other with $15 @ 20%, which would you close out?? It happens all the time, because people see trees as commodities, and not as assets. If you grow the trees that have the most quantity and highest quality, you will develop a forest that will provide significant regular and longterm return. If you are constantly selling the best trees when they become marketable, you will never have a forest that produces adequately, and you will be motivated to over-utilize it, making it worse.

Carl

[Author]

Posts