[Carl Russell]

I have no idea how steep your slopes are, but your horses should be able to hold back a loaded spreader and stop it on pretty much any hill I’ve worked on. The spreader in gear will slow it down for sure, but I think that horses moving forward at a working clip will make the spreader work better. I’d spread up hill, or on the contour. Carl

[Carl Russell]

Tevis, where do you drive from? Try stepping back by his rib cage and sticking him in the ribs with the butt of your whip. Most steers will move forward from you if you get behind the shoulder. I would rather have the balky one near than off, so I can get at him. You should be able to use the whip on him also, get him near the tail head, and step back to get yourself behind his energy, so he’ll go ahead.

You will have to encourage him, and find a way to get him to move without getting him too alarmed, but remember there is no reason that he can’t move those loads, he just needs to understand that. He may have been a very fast mover before, and was made to slow down, which has confused him, and he’s erring on the side of slow. Once you get him going you may have to move fast too so that you don’t let him slip back into this routine. He’ll slow down once he gets comfortable with his strength. I’ld rather have him moving fast than backward.

Also there’s a chance that the bow or yoke are bothering him,but with the loads you describe, I doubt that weight would cause any real discomfort.

Once you find a way to motivate him forward (I like poking him in the ribs) do that as you are readying them to pull. Warm him up, so he knows you mean business,and that you’re nearby, so he puts his energy where you want it.

Good luck, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Even the biggest burley guy cannot hold back a team that doesn’t want to stop. Line pressure is really not an effective way to stop horses anyway. I actually use the release of pressure to signify whoa. I practice this by periodically releasing pressure without speaking to them until they stop when line pressure is completely released.

Run-away horses are not running away from, for example hornet stings, they are running because they are responding reflexively to finding a solution to an uncomfortable situation, and they don’t trust the teamster as being that solution. Let’s just say that by accepting that the hornets are worth running from and by accepting that you won’t be able to stop them, the teamster validates their response. The horses need to want to stop for the teamster, and the teamster needs to KNOW that they can stop them. Practicing techniques that reinforce this is much more effective than preparing to be ready to force them to a stop by bit or line pressure when they have already committed to running away.

[Carl Russell]

I’m a big burley man, so I can’t evaluate your situation, but I am a firm believer in subtle messages. I am also a firm believer in establishing through the bit a communication system that will prevail through surprises. I have a lot of strength when I need it, but I use it more for stamina than for bruteness. The art is about subtly. Even with a “harsh bit” subtly will have to play in to it. Taking the time to do light, unsophisticated, and purely training type work will be as important as the harshness of the bit.
The difficulty of these undertakings is that they are personal, and we each have our own perspective, which is hard not to project onto others. I only mean to describe my own preference, I am willing to let others work it out for themselves. The more you work a certain way, the more solutions you’ll bring to it. Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have long held that there is a difference between self interest and selfishness. Survival is dependent on self interest, selfishness is a recipe for disaster. As I am truly only a small part of a huge undertaking, I am prepared to help, educate, feed, heal, whatever, but I am worthless without my foundation, my assets, my skills, my lifestyle. By separating myself from the masses in terms of lifestyle choices, I don’t assign them any judgment that will prevent me from sharing the group undertaking, I simply see it as fundamental to my security in the here-and-now, and it’s my best shot at the future.
I am a very extroverted person. Because of that, I am easily drawn into relationships with other people. I know my neighbors by the sound of their cars, and I find myself drawn to other people’s experiences. That being said, in spite of those reflexes, I have focused most of my life on simple physical, earthy enterprises, which I have ended up doing mostly by myself. Although I am now basking in the warmth of peer validation, most of the time it has been a lonely undertaking, and I know, and have known, that in my heart of hearts that this is what I need to be doing.
Although I realize that what works for me, may not solve anything for others, I can offer nothing if I don’t have what I need. There are as many perspectives as there are eyeballs, and we each can bring important pieces to the solution.
What we are doing on small farms may be no match for the coming disaster, but I realized one day while daydreaming in the woods that I was looking at an old back-furrow, a remnant of an old field in the deep woods, and it dawned on me that there are important messages left all around me from the scratches the old-timers left on the land. This farm we’re building may only end up as a message in the bottle for some distant future tribe trying to find answers to wrestling a living off this rock.
Carl

[Carl Russell]

My perspective on leadership is a bit archaic. I have long held that taking care of myself and setting the best possible example of how I see that I can meet my needs, and those of my family in the future will be the best that I can do. If I do a good enough job, then some people will also see what I have been trying to do, and they will share in the effort. Leading ones who don’t see, is as you say, difficult. Although I know what you’re getting at, that the toe dragging is apt to weigh heavy on us. The future is not simply going to be a matter of getting enough food and energy, but also a significant period of growth (regrowth) in human social interaction. I am not looking forward to having fights over stores, land ,or other resources, but that has long been a strong component of the human psyche, and if current affairs are any indication, we have not learned yet.

“Forgive them for they know not what they’ve done,
But as sure as the sun will shine,
I’m gonna get my share of what’s mine,
Then the harder they come, the harder they fall,
One and all.”

One way I try to lead is like this weekend I made a quiche for a local food recipe contest. It was turkey egg-ricotta-onion-bacon-sausage-yogurt with a potato pancake crust. Everything grown on the farm. I had to buy the salt and pepper. We eat like that a lot. To most people, even though the local-vore movement is big, local is not that local. I make sure that my discussion about food is about more than ingredients, and some people get it, but it is as you say, they can’t really believe in what I see as fundamental facts about food in the future.

I often refer to the tree in a drought that grows with every ounce of its capability, until there is such a demand for water and nutrients that leaves, twigs and branches die off. Being natural organisms, I think humans are prone to the same strategy in difficult times. As we look forward, the shear misery of under-satisfied needs is going to be a big chore.

Cheers:), Carl

[Carl Russell]

I find it interesting how different people are preparing for the uncertain future. I think like many of the posters on DAP, for the most part I live in a little tiny world of soil, animals, and other people who live in that world. (I live in my own little world, I know everyone there!?!:confused:)

But what interests me the most is that now people in the other world are talking about limited and disappearing natural resource. Much of the conversation seems to be about tweaking the current system, or protecting critical infrastructure, or investing in stockpiles and reserves.

I really believe that our solutions will come from skills, skills of personal engagement with food production, and resource use. On our small farm, our most sought after products are skills. However, when we try to start that conversation with urbanites concerned about peak oil, it often ends with raised eyebrows.

We are really entrenched in a culture where people have a hard time envisioning how they can personally provide for themselves without purchasing products. This is one of the biggest drawbacks to draft animal power, it is much more about skills than about fuel.

I also look optimistically to the future because there is a rapidly growing huge group of people who are looking to share initiatives and solutions. For hundreds of thousand of years, we have found incredible return through interaction and shared purpose with a group of people who are invested in a shared initiative.

They call that social capital now. This little forum is serving a great purpose in that regard.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Welcome, hopefully your interest will spawn some good discussions, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Lane, In the Work Horse Handbook on page 120 there is a 3-horse evener for a wagon hitch. As I wrote before, i have never made, nor used one, but I studied it hard a few years ago with the thought to use 3 on a bobsled. Hope that helps. Carl

[Carl Russell]

My experience has given me some perspective on the difference between “how it looks” and “how it feels”. The point about practice is not about how it looks, but how it feels.

Just as with some horses, some people need very little practice to get on top of something. But determining the required effort by the look of other people’s enterprises is problematic.

The important thing is to find a safe and consistent routine so that the teamster can practice enough (however much, or little) so that they can accomplish the desired task. This is entirely arbitrary.

I used to ask one of my mentors to come over and observe me when I undertook a new level of experience. The thing is that by the time I felt confident enough to ask him, I had a good solid start, and he never said much.

As far as how it looks, Walt Bryan, the man I mentioned above, had one pair of ponies that he took in trade for something. They were rumored to be “killers”. The week after he got them he took them to the pull. First pass by the boat they dragged him 30 feet (still standing) out in font. He sawed until he had them standing on their hinds, and backed them up all the way to the boat, and hitched them. By the end of the pull, he was hitching them every time, and he had sold them. They practically killed the new owner!!!

My basic advice is to get more first hand experience with the equipment you want to work with, but just develop a program, or routine that will get you to where you want to be.
Carl

[Carl Russell]

Jim, if you look at our photo gallery here you will see many good photos of horse logging. I have a good selection of photos of my operation over the last 22 years, including those using oxen. Also if you weed through the threads on Sustainable Forestry you will find names of horse loggers from all over the US, CA, and UK.

What is your purpose in wanting to use pictures of horses? Is there anyone associated with you effort that is knowledgeable about the use of animals?

The reason I ask is that at this site we are extremely concerned that animals get the appropriate representation that they deserve. There are a lot of preconceptions about using draft animals, and I would really like to make sure that any promotion that you undertake advances our efforts.

You can reach me at earthwise@together.net or by Private Message at this site.

Please feel free to contribute to this site and engage us in some discussions that you feel deserve airing. I’m sure that you will find many people here whop are interested in what you are doing.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

If you use an off-set 3 horse evener the plow will hitch between the off two, and your furrow horse will stay in the furrow, and you’ll have two on the land. Never have done it, but I’ve seen diagrams of the set-up. Carl

[Carl Russell]

If you have porcelain insulators, they can fail with the smallest spider cracks. I bought a brand new box once that after a heavy dew, you could hear the fence line crackle. Test the nails on your insulators to see if you’re losing current there. As far as solar fence chargers go, March and April have been pretty poor solar months and there may be enough charge to run the fencer, but not enough to mount much power. Also we bought a Gallagher s17 that had me second guessing myself for two years. I completely re-insulated one field, and drove ground rods. Along the way the dealer replaced this part or that in the charger, which seemed to work better at times, but finally it was apparent that the solar panel was defective, and when that was replaced, it has been awesome. It was confusing, because it appeared to function correctly enough, and the last thing you would assume is that a brand new solar panel didn’t work. So check all angles. I love to hunt and fish too, so I don’t mean to knock anybody, but if you have a fence line where someone might go to access the woods, or a brook, sportsmen are renowned for grounding out a fence so they can cross, using an old piece of fence wire, or such. Good luck. Carl

[Carl Russell]

I received info last fall about the International Coalition for the Protection of the Polish Countryside. They held a conference last fall, and are working to promote small scale animal powered traditional land-use and sustainable initiatives. They have a great website including a photo gallery at http://www.icppc.pl
Carl

[Carl Russell]

I think we all go through that stage where we wonder at what point are we actually doing something. It really isn’t about how well it looks, but how well it works. Part of that is our own impression of how well it works, the other part is practice.

If I listened to all the people who told me I looked stupid out there “working the old fashioned way”, I’d be driving a Beemer, chasing women, working on wall street, and doing drugs. (Not that there’s anything wrong with that lifestyle:eek:). The point is that the drive to overcome obstacles, to practice, is the most important aspect to this endeavor.

My main concern about very small, or part-time farming, or light use of draft animals, is the practice. I don’t know whether round pen work can be enough to establish a work routine, but I can see how it might. There has to be some body of work to address regularly that doesn’t require a lot of start up time, or even an allotted time-frame, so that the teamster can develop the skills and the sense of accomplishment, and the animal can trust the request for engagement.

This is not an easy model to create, because as far as I know this is a re-awakening for another aspect of animal power. As difficult as it is to undertake the teamster’s craft in logging or farming, there is always abundant opportunities for practice, and when the lifestyle is molded to that frame-work then there is much more time to dedicate to the effort.

I really think that there are a lot of people who would be energized by demonstrations of success at this level. Carl

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