[dlskidmore]

I’m slowly developing your inputs into my plan. I’m going to remain focused on the dog drafting, and not get into horse drafting while I’m changing up so much at once. I think though that I’m going to consider a lot of horse compatible implements, that can be pulled with a small tractor, and could be easily converted to horse power at a later date. Even the little lawn tractors come in 20-30 hp with a single point hitch, I don’t need to buy into the three point hitch system.

[dlskidmore]

Last time we tied down a tent in 103 MPH winds, the ridge pole snapped under the pressure, but ours at least didn’t just flop over or fly away like the rest of the division.

Assuming your structural members are sturdy, which they should be to resist the occasional horse bump, a pair of compression lines running diagonal across the rectangular shelter, coming down at 45 degrees to the ground, should hold fast. You might have to educate the horses about stakes of any are inside the pen area, perhaps making them much longer than necessary, and use a heavy, highly visible rope? If stakes and rope are too risky, you’ll just have to add a solid compression member at an angle on each upright, and run the stresses the other way around the structure.

[dlskidmore]

This one better?

[dlskidmore]

@Carl Russell 17762 wrote:

That is a very cool tool. Thanks for posting it!

[dlskidmore]

The link I posted was not the one you are thinking of?

[dlskidmore]

@jac 18573 wrote:

Check out a thread on this forum that was posted by Donn Hewes regards pressure release..

Link

[dlskidmore]

A local place makes run-in sheds and small barns designed to be skidded, but that does require a specialized flatbed to move. I doubt their moving fee would be cost-effective.

[dlskidmore]

This is one of the major reasons why I want to farm. I do not want to be one of those guys that buys up elbow room and mows it. Unless you’re coaching a football team, one acre of lawn is a waste of time, money, and land, never mind more acres. I may be guilty of selling low, and doing silly things like overpaying for hay, but I would prefer to be taken advantage of by my neighbor the real farmer, and not get into the bulk markets. (I know I overpay for straw right now, but I’m mostly paying for the guy to be available for an hour when I can drive out there, and would want more straw for the same price if I had a bigger vehicle.)

I’m interested in your comment about renting out the land to the wrong guy. How would you go about attracting and selecting a good tenant if you had more land than you could work yourself? I may find myself in that situation at first. I’d rather not take the route of pasturing three sheep on forty acres.

[dlskidmore]

Limestone aka Calcite, and Aragonite are CaCO3, Lime is CaO, both provide Calcium and Oxygen, and are alkaline. Shells and eggshells are also sources of CaCO3 and might be interchangeable in that chemical reaction, but are probably not available to most folks in large enough quantities. Aragonite is very plentiful around the Caribbean, and is frequently mined for the aquarium trade.

Lime will turn back into calcite over time if the calcium is not taken up by the plants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_oxide

“Calcium oxide is usually made by the thermal decomposition of materials such as limestone, that contain calcium carbonate (CaCO3; mineral calcite) in a lime kiln. This is accomplished by heating the material to above 825 °C,[1] a process called calcination or lime-burning, to liberate a molecule of carbon dioxide (CO2); leaving quicklime. “

I’d imagine the leftover residue would be higher in carbon than commercial lime, which can also be good for the vegetation. It would also not have had as much time to react with CO2 as stuff that’s been sitting in a warehouse or store.

[dlskidmore]

@OldKat 18543 wrote:

Not sure how expensive land is in your area, Monroe County, NY

We’re actually currently looking just beyond the borders of the county, to the southeast. My husband’s job is in the southeast corner of Monroe, and land gets much cheaper as you move out from the city. We’ve seen properties such as 40 acres for 7k listed, (although that was an extreme bargain, others we found were still affordable and would not be forced to take the extreme bargain if the terrain/drainage is all wrong) so I think we can get either empty land and a bare bones home built, or an old run-down farm for a reasonable housing price. Certainly less than folks around big cities pay for just a nice house. We have a phased building plan that would allow us to get a smaller up-front loan without giving up our long-term bigger home dreams.

We are bargain hunters, the home we’ve been living in for 7 years now we picked up for $14,000. We had it paid off in 4 years, and we jokingly call it our disposable house. Just about anything with working plumbing and electricity and not in our neighborhood would be a step up. We’re not planning on using the equity to buy the new place, but may be able to use it towards equipment/structures/fencing. (Although it probably will not cover all three.)

@OldKat 18543 wrote:

you might look into leasing at least some of the land you will need first

That would not be compatible with the slow start plan. If leasing I would need to ramp up operations to the point where I make up for the lease cost in the first year. A purchase allows me to invest capital, and have a chance of getting some of that capital back if I am a complete failure at this. The market has been more stable in Rochester than elsewhere, but is is a bit low right now, and prices are likely to go back up when the economy booms again. Delaying a purchase will inflate my later purchase price. The plan will depend on not biting off more than we can chew financially with existing finances. I can not put myself in a do-or-die position.

@OldKat 18543 wrote:

in our state the liability was so horrendous that we couldn’t afford the incremental insurance.

This is a very good point. I really need to get a lawyer or underwriter to look over my full business plan before we buy the land. I do intend to allow the public on my land, so I need to mitigate risk as much as I can.

@OldKat 18543 wrote:

Yet, I don’t get the sense that you have a real passion for the “horse drawn” aspect of your dream / vision.

Correct. I like animals in general, but I’m much more passionate about dogs than horses. I see the utility of the horse, the economy, and some intrinsic value, but would be perfectly happy using a tractor instead. I think it’s still worth continuing to research, but not include as a serious part of my plan. (Personality flaw, I want to know everything, I will be pleased as punch if I can gain a ton of book-level knowledge even if I never actually touch a horse. My saltwater aquarium articles generally get good reviews, but I haven’t a drop of saltwater in the house because I find the hobby way too expensive to do it right.)

@OldKat 18543 wrote:

In your case, I would be very cautious before investing in animals and equipment before determining if you would even like working with them.

I agree with your point when it comes to horses, but the sheep are rather integral to my plan. The sheep and chickens however are much more socially acceptable to eat if the plan goes south, and the dogs won’t care if I let the animals get tough and old before butchering.

[dlskidmore]

@Scott G 18541 wrote:

I think you’re a natural for a draft powered forestry business…

Well there is a local apprenticeship opportunity in logging, if I can fit not working for cash into the budget that would be a good place to start.

[dlskidmore]

As for animal power being a goal, I would not put it that strongly. I see the benefits of animal power, and I’m not intrinsically opposed to the idea. I’m fascinated by miniature horses and sulky driving, although my Great Dane is the closest I’ve gotten to that. I’ve always disliked the idea of boarding a pet, so it’s never really been a possibility previously. I like horses, but know that I need much more training before it would be responsible to try to control the larger beasts. The horse’s safety and my own are at stake, never mind accomplishing any goal together.

I have an online friend who is currently converting her farm from tractor power to horse power. I will watch her transition with interest.

[dlskidmore]

I don’t want to go into my full business plan here, but I’m not seeking for the farming operation to fully replace my previous income, or even go much further than subsistence. My husband will continue to bring in a moderate income, and I have another part time enterprise planned for the land. We’re planning to proceed cautiously, and not break the bank and bet our future on farming.

I am planning to about quadruple the subsistence activities my parents conducted, which they managed just on nights and weekends.

The more I look into tractors or large draft animals, the more it looks appealing to buy winter feed instead of putting up my own, and use a simple motorized rototiller for plowing. At least the first few years when things are small, that could be economical. As I expand I’ll have to consider more carefully what’s best for the operation and the family.

A larger pasture/haying/woodlot area would be useful to several of my goals, but if I’m not going to be able to manage it myself, I may have to scale back the land purchase to match the business plan. I’d like to keep all of the land at the agricultural tax rate.

[dlskidmore]

@mother katherine 18530 wrote:

This is to tout the ox again.
As you are already used to walking beside the draft animal istead of behind it, the working cattle would be familiar, as most teamsters walk beside their teams, as well as ahead of or behind them.
No reins.
oxnun

I’ve read about using oxen, but not heard of it being done anywhere around here. How do you find suitable yokes/harnesses? I’ve also heard unfavorable things about the temperament of oxen, and read that historically farmers were able to improve productivity after switching from oxen to horses. What are the pros of oxen over horses? (Assuming I want to go for a larger draft animal I’m not currently familiar with.)

[dlskidmore]

The vegetative side (except for hay) is going to be a larger scale version of what I already have done. The kids were a very integral part of the vegetable raising process in my parent’s home, I helped Mom with her little plant sales and I have a little postage stamp version at my city home. I think I’m prepared mentally for that, need to work up physical preparation and knowledge of the larger scale equipment.

The livestock handling side is where I really need to pick up experience. I need to look into the feasibility of an apprenticeship. Right now my income is needed to make progress towards the land purchase, but might not be needed after the land purchase. I’m willing to leave the land fallow for a bit to ease into it correctly. (In my dream world I can rent out part of the land until I’m ready to work it, but I’m not counting on that in planning finances.) I’m downright planning to not fully utilize the land the first year even if I am fully mentally prepared. I will need time to work into it slowly on the physical side. I might start as small as 1/4 acre of veggies and 3 sheep the first year, keeping up my day job to pay for more fencing, equipment, and outbuildings for further expansion while gaining more hands on experience at the lower risk investment level. Going from desk worker to farmer is not done overnight on the day of the land transaction.

Like I said before, this is a feasibility study. I am not going to purchase a horse until I am confident that it will be happy, and healthy, in my hands. I’ve spent way too much time counseling people who bought dogs or sea critters without thinking it all through first to do that to a different animal I don’t know much about.

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