[goodcompanion]

@Countymouse 18561 wrote:

Wow! This is really coming together nicely. Is the window to see behind you? Are you going to put on rear view mirrors? Brakes? Are you planning on only stopping at places where you can tie the horses? Somehow I imagine people who see you might want to buy things then and there… Do you plan on setting up a small display table when you get to the location? Are you going to put a logo or farm info on the side of the wagon?

The window is to see into the cargo compartment. It will be covered with a little door. It’s not really to see behind since the back door of the wagon does not have glass. It was a feature of the original design–I’m not sure what the main function was, but it seemed like a good idea to include it, as it would let some daylight into the cargo area. I will also have a 12v dome light in there.

We will have 3 scheduled stops on an 8 mile round trip. We will distribute cards with the wagon’s schedule. In Vergennes, I will be selling in two public locations for the use of which I must coordinate with the city manager. In our one location in Ferrisburgh we will be on private property. The plan is to only sell while stationary once the horse has been tied up, not upon request while in transit.

For vending, I hope to set up a quasi-stall alongside the wagon. I’m going to make an awning that will roll up tight right under the roof eave for transport. Most of our goods (bread, eggs, some vegetables) will transport in special wooden crates that will be sized to fit inside the van in special lurch-proof shelving. These same crates will mount on display brackets that will hold them underneath the awning, above the wheels, canted out at an attractive angle. Not sure yet whether a table will be necessary as well. I think the brackets alone will display about 14 square feet of items in crates (5 or 6 crates) which should be enough with good planning. Hopefully crates can be quickly and logically recharged or swapped out with those from inside the van. The van will transport a total of 12 crates measuring about 16″ wide by 24″ long x 1′ high, plus two large coolers, one for meats and one for vegetables.

No brakes. We are counting on the shafts for that.

There will definitely be a bunch of print and artwork on the side of the wagon. Hopefully real per-fessional like. My brother-in-law is a painter (as in paintings, not houses) and is coming up to visit this weekend. I hope to rope him into doing something really amazing.

I am still thinking of some little wry text on the back of the wagon. One frontrunner:

“Back to the Future
But not,
as it turns out,
in a DeLorean”

or more simply:

“This is how we roll.”

[goodcompanion]

Thanks for the compliments!

I get to combine some of my favorite interests here. Draft horses, bread, woodworking, and artwork.

Won’t be ready for the parade but that’s all right since I never got around to contacting the organizer anyway. But it has to be ready the week after or vegetables will go unsold due to a lack of venue.

The yellow plywood looks and is bellied out since it is not tacked to the studs in the center yet.

[goodcompanion]

Hello Denise and welcome.

Hard to say how to advise you. I guess I would suggest to proceed as slowly as possible. The mode of traction is a relatively minor point in your whole endeavor, you have got a lot of steep learning curves ahead of you. Best learning around is on working, for-profit farms like the one you hope to start.

I would suggest an apprenticeship. A typical apprenticeship would probably entail putting your project on hold for the time you are doing it and working very hard for little or no pay. But in the right kind of situation it is a very cheap way to learn a lot of expensive lessons the easy way. Failing that, you might offer to work for free for whatever farmers in your area are doing the kind of work that interests you, in return for being able to learn and ask questions.

Having said that I do believe that the skills required to start up and run a small farm are learnable and that it can be done in conjunction with raising a family. But not the least bit easy. Invest as much time as you can getting real experience.

[goodcompanion]

This might be a good opportunity for one of my apprentices. We have a seasoned team and a nice walking plow and a sulky. Problem is, no transport. I am about an hour from you. If you have transport to spare or if someone is headed down rt 7 en route to you with a larger rig let me know. Timing is fine as is.

[goodcompanion]

@jac 18480 wrote:

Lynn Miller is quoted in his draft horse hand book that unless you grow you’re own horse feed, you may never benefit from the true value of draft horses.. I think he may be right.. I would like to think a team on 70cwt of grain a year would be used more than occasionaly but I see what you mean..
John

I was referring to a team I can see out the window right at this moment and they do about 4 hours of work every other week or so. They would be fed the same ration even if they weren’t doing that. I mentioned earlier, it’s not my team and not my place to dictate their care as long as it’s not my money feeding them. People’s grain practices are all over the map as are all other aspects of horse care: hooves, fly protection, dentistry, fashion attire, level of vetrinary care.

[goodcompanion]

Yeah, I guess it’s important to keep in mind that a lot of what we value in animal power originally came about as part of a whole cultural paradigm. Those of us using animal power in the contemporary world as it is are trying to make use of certain parts of that paradigm that we’ve chosen to take out and dust off, maybe leaving others on the shelf.

The virtue of animal power is that it can kind of function in the contemporary world. I say “kind of” because I don’t think many of us who are trying to use AP to earn a living farming or logging are having a terrific financial time of it. It “kind of” works for us well enough to keep us going, otherwise it would have entirely disappeared. But it doesn’t really function all that well absent the whole culture that surrounded it. Perhaps it’s better, morally, ethically, socially, spiritually than using gas power. But also maybe not–to return to the original topic, I would argue that a team of horses that does only occasional work yet consumes 8000 lbs of grain a year is not really part of the solution to the predicament of our failed agriculture.

There’s a great freedom in being able to pick and choose how we make our way in the world from the full range of options. Carl likes to fork every manure spreader load by hand–great! Another uses a bucket loader–super! I’m taking an interest in wet rice–why not? One teamster feeds no grain, another feeds a mountain of it. It’s all good. Whatever floats one’s boat.

But the real danger here, with each of us constructing our individual worldviews and practices more or less in a vacuum, is that without the stabilizing backbone of a real living culture, we can really go off in left field and who is there to set us straight? Not market forces. Not culture. Not religion. Not family. Not tradition. Donn Hewes put it best–each of us individually groping around in the dark for some notion of “sustainability” until the moment when it comes up behind us and whacks us over the head.

[goodcompanion]

@mitchmaine 18470 wrote:

http://www.draftanimalpower.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1244&d=1273943611

john, one time a hundred years ago, amish and english farm models were one in the same. large families working in farming communities with animal power. when we went to fossil fuel and machines, we could eliminate the people involved, until one man and a son could farm 1000’s of acres.
and we understand the comparisons and wonder why its so difficult returning to the old model. i think it’s because we are trying to recreate the farm family without the family. most of us are trying to farm using animals, but lack the support of eight kids and a spouse and grandparents, and farming neighbors. that’s the beauty of amish farming to me. not the horse, but the support. thoughts, anybody? sure makes it easier with an extra pair of hands sometimes. mitch

Certainly very true. Repopulating the farming landscape is pretty critical to a revival of sustainable farming. But there are huge challenges to making this happen, and this segues into a whole other topic, of course.

I don’t think the world has space in it for a new wave of amish-sized farm families coast to coast. While it’s convenient to have all those well-drilled kids around, this kind of family structure expects expansion into the indefinite future. Which to me is an ethical problem in a finite world.

So if people like me are to strive to repopulate our farms, maybe we have to do so with people who are not related to us. How then are we bound together? Not by necessity, at least not yet. By culture or religion? Hardly. And who follows whose direction? I grew up observing the first wave of back-to-the-land groups of unrelated adults have their projects dissolve in various kinds of mutual recrimination. Of all those well-meaning endeavors of the 70’s, I don’t know of a single one that survives in anything approaching its original form.

Not to say that it’s impossible. Right now I have four motivated adults on 110 acres, three of whom are teamsters, which is pretty good, I think, and the effect on the landscape is evident. But these arrangements are to be approached with extreme caution, to my view, and I’m reluctant to give up much “soverignty” if you will.

[goodcompanion]

@Countymouse 18435 wrote:

Hmmm… That’s a good point about the wheel, bed, and shaft height. I agree a cart would look much better (and probably be move functional) with taller wheels. Taller wheels would definately look better if they were wooden… That would probably require a different axle and probably different springs as well. So yeah, probably better from scratch. By the way, do you have a good source for the wagon parts (wheels, axles, springs, etc)? Maybe they have a website to share?

What do you think of this design for a 2-wheeled delivery van?

http://www.wildhorsebooks.com/Plans/Delivery%20van%20copy%20copy.jpg

Well, I got two new wheels made to order by Witmer Coach in New Holland PA. They did great work, and the wheels came out at around $140 each. Depending on the width of the felloe (wooden part of the rim) and the nature of the tire (rubber or steel) the cost per wheel runs between about $100 to $175 I think. $175 gets you a monster wheel. They sell all the springs and axles too. If you find an antique with sound wheels that could be modified that might save you some money, otherwise Witmer is the place. All the prices are very reasonable.

They are Amish though so no website. They will send you a catalog and price list if you call, though.

[goodcompanion]

@Countymouse 18417 wrote:

Looks great! I am curious what you learned about springs and wheels. I think you are using wooden wheels, right? This is in keeping with the overall design of the wagon, are there other advantages to this type of wheel? I have been toying with the idea of building a smaller two wheeled delivery cart if your delivery experience seems positive. I was basically going to rob the wheels, axle, and suspension from a small utility trailer and sit in on a nicely constructed and decorated box. Does this type of design jive with what you have learned about wheels and suspension?

There are no real advantages of the wood wheel over the pneumatic version, other than that a good wood wheel will last a lifetime with care and no rubber tire will do that. Also I guess just plain largeness of diameter served to smooth the ride in the absence of pneumatic tires. There are, I think, some wooden wheels with bearings that will fit certain trailer axles. That might allow you to swap out a wooden wheel, maybe with a rubber tire, for your auto type ones later on if you wanted.

I can see that for a two-wheeled vehicle a car trailer might be a decent shortcut. But depending on what your finished wagon was supposed to look like it might also be a headache, and make your work harder than if you had started with a serviceable antique or from scratch.

One factor is that in two wheelers the diameter of the wheels affects the height of the box and consequently the configuration of the shafts or pole. I have seen the pioneer gears that have little tires and a set of steel shafts with a big rise–this looks very unnatural to me.

Anyway, I guess what I am trying to say is that my decision-making process led me to a more traditional design executed with some modern materials. That’s what appealed to my eye and sense of form following function, and I thought that on some level that this type of vehicle captures the popular imagination better than one obviously made from car or trailer parts, which I hope will translate into profit from sales. You just have to go with what your eye and your gut tells you. So many variables for how projects like these can go together, I don’t think there’s just one right way.

[goodcompanion]

Here are some photos. There is enough of it together now to give you the idea!

I have been in dialog with SFJ about doing an article about this project, from the original inspiration through construction to the end use. Any suggestions from you guys as far as angles of interest to the readership would be welcome! For instance one thing to note is that while my version makes pretty heavy use of cabinet joinery, you can make a very serviceable box using plywood in lieu of stile-rail-panel construction, I could elaborate on that.

Another is that I have along the way learned a lot about springs and wheels, and what makes commercial vehicles distinct from passenger vehicles. That is to say, a doctor’s buggy or amish buggy would make a poor platform for a wagon like this, and explaining why that’s so might save somebody a lot of trouble.

[goodcompanion]

So the wagon is coming along. Right now I am working on the body of the box. The body is constructed of five frames, like the “bents” on a timber frame house. The rear frame houses two taillights and a rectangular opening for a door. The front frame and the one behind it rise up from the deck from the four corners of a bench the driver sits on. The remaining two frames are just studs with an arched roof beam. These two support the structure inside the cargo compartment.

So far I have made all but the two frames that are inside the cargo compartment. Each frame so far is made like a sort of cabinet out of ash with panels and mortise-and-tenon glued joints. They are really stressful to put together with so many parts constantly slipping out of square, but I have had some help. And a bunch of pipe clamps.

Currently the box is up on some sawhorses. With frames 1,2, and 5 installed you can really see the shape of the thing coming together. Meanwhile Hallie, my apprentice, is coating and recoating the side panels and wheels with yellow enamel. This weekend we will probably fit the side panels and bolt the box to the gear and attach the wheels. I am guessing the finished weight empty will be around 6-800 lbs.

Once we reach the point where it is on wheels there will still be the sheathing of the roof, which has a compound curve in the front, and the fitting of electronics, shelving, and an awning and crate brackets.

Anybody know about leather axle washers? What are they supposed to be for? Necessary or not?

I realize this text is probably a little tedious without pictures and promise to oblige.

[goodcompanion]

@firebrick43 18325 wrote:

So if you wanted an all cast machine, you would have to make patterns(There is a lot of money right there as patterns have to be specifically designed to flow right and allow for shrinkage of molten metal. Ship them over seas, send a representive over seas to ensure quality(if you don’t you wont get good work) and have them shipped back. Port fees are outragoues for small scale items, so you have to have the capitol to cast at least a container load.

You still have to manufacture some sprag clutches, and fabricate/cast the head, bar, and general support system.

Now you have a machine that cost 4000 dollars or more in material/labor, that doesn’t take into account any profit, transportation, or marketing, so you would be north of 6000 dollars.

Even the big three in horse equipment, Pioneer, I&J, and White horse are not making millions and they are selling products with more demand.

Wouldn’t the thing to do be to inquire of International whether the original molds and patterns still exist, and whether they can be bought or leased?

I agree that it is a major, capital-intensive and daunting project. Mowers were so plentiful back in the day that most of us can find acceptable candidates in the trash, so to speak. So demand for a new mower is relatively low. But eventually the trash will be tapped out, so I don’t think the question will go away. Not saying I want to be the one to do it, but if someone was to make a pet project of acquiring rights and patterns to eventually build the McD number 9 before functioning antique mowers become truly scarce, it mightn’t be a terrible idea.

[goodcompanion]

@Countymouse 18343 wrote:

Maybe I’ve just had inefficient horses, but I like to think they have been hard workers. At any rate, I’ve always had to grain at least some, and lately alot. I agree that it is essential to monitor the horses condition and adjust grain intake to condition. Someone told me that the best “person” to tell you how much to feed your horse is your horse. I have found this to be good advice. Personally, I like to be able to feel ribs, but not see them. Well, maybe the last one of two on a sunny day… To my experience, how much you can grain a horse depends alot on thier underlying physical condition. When my horse was new and out of shape, she would get fat if I fed her more than about 4 lb a day, even though I started to work her right away. Her increased feed corresponded to her increased workload as she slowly gained condition and strength. It took a full year of consistent exhausting work to get up to 12-15 lbs a day without getting fat. Given this, I am not sure this is amount of food is really strange. The story of Michael Phelps and his 12000 calories a day diet comes to mind. That amount of food would certainly make most people (including me) very fat… I have also found that it is helpful to keep track of her energy level and her muscle tone. For mine, the type of feed makes a big difference in her energy level. Carbs tend to make her hot in the first half hour, and fat gives slow energy over longer periods of time. I try to give as much fat as she’ll eat, but I have often run into palatability issues.

This brings to mind a much earlier discussion on this board, of larger versus smaller animals. Someone said that using more smaller rather than fewer larger animals in a hitch was more efficient, although grain wasn’t specifically singled out, the topic being more hay, I think. I wonder if generalized use of greater numbers of smaller animals would lead to less use of grain, to reduce both the financial expense to practitioners and the environmental costs associated with grain production.

[goodcompanion]

@Countymouse 18303 wrote:

I don’t know if I can really defend the economy of my feeding practices, but I think it might have evolved from two factors.

Hey, it’s not my intent to make anyone have to defend anything. It’s just that the social scientist in me likes to take a step back and try to figure out where the calories are coming from and going to, and what the implications of future changes in that energy flow might be for me and people like me.

I would bet that if we didn’t have that cheap grain (which, times being as they are, I am not totally averse to using, particularly for chickens and pigs) we teamsters would still be in a pretty good place. But maybe most of us would be working bonier horses.

Perceptions of good animal condition certainly change with the times too. For instance a lot of photos of cows from the 20s or 30s look really lean to the contemporary eye.

[goodcompanion]

Putting it all in perspective, thanks for the responses.

All I can say is, if your beasts are working hard enough to really need it then my hat is off to you. I’ve never really reached that point of sustained labor, mostly because of life getting in the way, but hope to some day.

But wow. Two tons of grain per animal per year makes a big dent in the landscape. Someone, somewhere, has to grow that grain, probably someone driving a tractor. I have a real appreciation of how much effort it takes to grow grain using animal power. If you worked your horses hard and grew all your own feed, how much of your year would be spent growing grain and haying strictly on behalf of your horses? I seem to remember Lynn Miller suggesting 25 % (of land use, and therefore probably time as well) but this seems like an ideal number you could probably only achieve if everything worked perfectly. I guess I’ve never seen anyone actually operating a farm on such principles and probably am not likely to.

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