[goodcompanion]

Steel drums are fine but have a much smaller “sail area” than plywood. Thus, less power for all the trouble of setting them into a tower on a shaft with bearings and such.

The design is framed around the nature of the materials that come easily to hand. Plywood comes in 4 x 8 sheets and can be efficiently made into a sturdy rotor with a lot of surface area to catch the wind. Designs for this will be distributed at the conclusion of the project, by the way.

Exposed, the way you see it in the video, the array will degrade. A fiberglass or steel version would obviously last longer, but for a basic windmill, the price of wood is right!! However we also plan to put a roof over it and seal the exposed wood with a good paint job. I expect it to last about 5 years before needing much attention.

[goodcompanion]

Very, very, interesting news.

I wonder what the reaction from the state ag department and the USDA will be? Ignore it? Or make an example of it and try to nip the movement in the bud? Are Sedgwick residents ready to go to the barricades on this one?

[goodcompanion]

@OldKat 25490 wrote:

So let me get this straight, you are saying that anyone that is wealthy in the US is a thief? I’m trying to contrast this revelation to several people I know who are wealthy, some VERY wealthy. Quite frankly, every one of them that I know have made their way to the top by busting their tails, taking risks and managing their assets; be they $ or other assets very closely. These are all decent, hard working folks. Most have probably done more than anyone else that I know to try to lift the standard of living for those in their communities who are not as well off. Likewise I know some people that are poor as a church mouse, and even though they have worked their tails off, too, things haven’t gone nearly as well for them. Doesn’t mean that they have done anything wrong, or that they are bad people it just means that they either picked a line of work that wasn’t that (financially) rewarding or that they were not as capable at managing their assets, maybe both.

While I agree that some people are wealthy because they have abused the system, taken unfair advantage of others, stolen, etc, etc I also know that there are poor people who have done these same things. So if your assertion is that people in this country can only become wealthy through being thieves and “taking” from other people, that is certainlty your prerogative and right to feel that way.

However I reject that notion. I have seen too many examples were that is clearly not the case, to buy into this as a universal truth. Besides this whole class warfare / USA bashing thing gets kind of old, especially when you consider that the poorest of our poor are still doing quite well by the standards of most of the world. There are people all over the world who would gladly change places with them. Think I am wrong? There are approximately 10 million reasons (estimated) in this country that say I am right. They are called illegal aliens and some go through EXTREME hardships and danger just to get here. Just to have chance to take a swipe at the opportunitites this country offers. You may have never talked to any of them, I have, I can tell you most … the vast majority, are darned happy to be here.

Maybe I put it a little strongly. However the undisputed trend is that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. This trend is not in the interest of a sustainable future. I stand by that 100%.

However well-off the US poor are to those elsewhere in the world is irrelevant. Some poor people may be useless as individuals and some rich, as individuals, may be be wonderful, diligent and generous. This too is irrelevant. I am talking about trends, and the general good of the people as a whole. A widening income gap is very, very worrisome.

[goodcompanion]

Of course you can get yourself in a lot of trouble idealizing Cuba and its agrarian revolution. It’s a tough life without a lot of luxuries and a lot of burdens, for humans and animals. But they survive, and have for decades, even as economists and political scientists have predicted their demise.

I personally don’t hold to animal power because I believe it will be the solution or even part of a whole macro-level solution to our current agricultural and societal problems. I don’t believe there is any large-scale solution to be found at all and I’m not waiting around for the nation’s great minds to come up with one.

At least in Cuba, when faced with a crisis, the central government devised a way to spread the suffering and the work pretty evenly (at least among the humans). For my country I have zero faith in that happening. I am sure that the poor will bear the brunt of any hardship we face, while for the rich, a crisis is just a new opportunity for theft.

[goodcompanion]

@Simple Living 25439 wrote:

This is a picture of a wagon that my dad owns and we have used only for show. We have some history on it as he purchased it from the estate auction of the original owner. It was made at the Jackson State Pen. in Jackson Michigan in the early 1920’s. The racks that you can see in this picture can be removed and the wagon used as a wagon. The racks are set up in a scissor fashion with the ends fitting into slots in the wagon on the opposing side and a bolt where they intersect. If you are interested in more detailed pictures I would be more than happy to get some and post them here. It really is a wonderful design and fun to show off. If I remember right it makes a standart wagon almost 12′ wide and this one is almost 16′ long.

Enjoy,
Gordon.

Yes! Yes!

That’s the one I want!

Just seeing this picture and reading your description I can imagine it pretty well. You could carry a lot of sheaves on that! Please do take more pictures, that design is the bomb. I will take a nice hi-res of my “replica” loaded down with rice (yes, rice) and send it to you!

[goodcompanion]

Both very cool. You can really imagine the second one with a huge puff of grain or hay overflowing the sides–it seems like the sides are designed to keep the grass/straw just clear of the wheels.

Also, on the second one, it looks like the angle of the sides can be adjusted somewhat with those iron rings and hooks, that would allow the sides to be supported lower down on those poles that connect to the hubs?

[goodcompanion]

@grey 25389 wrote:

Are you talking about the ones that look like a boat?

Yeah, that’s it. Usually no backboard, and the bed sloping upwards fore and aft and on both sides.

[goodcompanion]

@near horse 25252 wrote:

You might need to put some sort of fence around it 😮

Ultimately the whole array is getting hoisted and installed on the ridge of my 130′ gambrel roof barn. There it’ll be under a little roof and will look kind of like an oversized cupola, with a trim and paint scheme to match the rest of the barn. It will be accessible by interior stairs that we’ll build for the purpose, maybe 5 people at a time will be able to go up and see it, clean off snow if necessary, but the electric components will be protected from the weather, and will be able to interface with the rest of the farm electric.

[goodcompanion]

@near horse 25238 wrote:

With regard to the “windmill” versions (Dutch and in the old west), I think you’re looking for a different power usage than electricity generation, although they can do that too. Those things are good for pumping water and grinding feed etc – is that right?

Erik – what’s your storage going to be and how far from the rotor? Are you planning on running DC appliances or how will you use the electricity – inverter? Some of that can get spendy – just depends on how close to “on the grid convenience” you choose.

IMHO – the whole electric car movement should benefit the solar/wind power users in the development of better, smaller, cheaper batteries.

Carl – I never saw how you generate power at your place. What’s your setup?

Generally VAWTs and Water pumper Aeromotor type windmills both operate at low speed, high torque. Good for pumping water and grinding grain as you said. We had to gear up in order to get the higher rpms needed for generation.

The initial goal is simply to measure output so as to have an objective measure of performance. We will do this with a DC generator, a load (electric heater), an array of sensors, and a data logger. The research objective is to log 3 months of continuous production data. The output will not be used for anyone’s benefit during this time, it’s just research.

Later on my hope is to swap out the DC generator for a squirrel cage AC grid-tied generator, and net-meter the whole thing. This is kind of a separate project. It will be easier to deal with the power co. once we have assessed the performance of the device.

High winds today–that sucker is really flying!!! I would not dare to try and stop it with my hand like I did in the video!

[goodcompanion]

@Countymouse 25234 wrote:

Fascinating. Another question. Why two smaller turbines instead of one larger one?

The size of the device is determined by the materials. These rotors are as big as they can be and still be made out of 4 x 8 sheets of plywood. To increase power further you need bigger materials or just add more rotors of the same size until you reach your estimated production target.

Often you see these things made with 55 gal drums but the plywood design has a much larger swept area than the drums, hence, more power.

The side by side design works in sites with consistent wind directionality. Here almost all wind comes from the due south or due north. If your winds were less consistent then totally independent towers would be better. I am still not sure the side by side design is a worthwhile one, even here. It is better than a single tower, but maybe not twice as good. The advantage is that all generation and monitoring can be housed in one location.

[goodcompanion]

@Countymouse 25227 wrote:

This is great. I love these designs that are so far away from what I would have guessed an optimal design be (I would have guessed something more similar to a postcard from Holland) 🙂 I will be following this thread closely, as my place is also windy much of the year and I was not liking my power bill this winter. I am curious if there was thought put into what wind velocities might be too high? Would you predict the turbine will need shut off if the wind is very strong? Perhaps this is another strength of this design over the vane-type design???

Supposedly the savonius is resistant to damage from overspeeding. We have had some pretty high speeds and it has done well so far.

One of the things, at least in our region, that causes damage in high winds is not the high wind itself but the gusting patterns. Usually in high wind conditions, the wind is sort of generally powerful from a given direction, and then periodically a gust will come in from about 20-30 degrees off the dominant direction at higher velocity. For a HAWT, this forces the device to turn into the gust while moving at high RPM–due to the gyroscopic effect of the turning prop, this is very hard on the device and all of its components, and is a leading reason why northeastern HAWTs degrade faster than those out west.

With a VAWT the gusting pattern really doesn’t affect it, since it is always facing the wind.

[goodcompanion]

@blue80 25219 wrote:

Nice Erik, please keep us posted. I closely followed projects like Mag-Wind http://www.wind-works.org/articles/Mag-WindPyramidalPower.html as I thought VAWT’s hold some higher benefits, but haven’t seen the results to show it yet….

Seems like the rotor in that project was one that was billed as a commercial alternative to a HAWT. I wouldn’t claim that of mine. But I would say that it’s likely that an individual could build their own and redeem the cost of the project very quickly in energy savings.

The beauty of ours is not that it’s super efficient but that it’s big, sturdy, and very cheap to build. Low initial costs set the bar for payback period very low.

[goodcompanion]

@near horse 25216 wrote:

Worst part is old Jacques wasn’t a marine biologist at all. He was an “adventurer” that young kids thought was a marine biologist. He did work on SCUBA though so I’ll give him that much.

Yea, I changed my path after a couple of ill-fated research cruises – people puking, cold wet and no going back until the appointed time. That was like the carnival ride from hell.

Speaking of carnival rides Erik – come fair season, you could take your rotor to the fair and with some good wind, charge kids $1 or 2 to get inside and let the wind spin ’em – then also sell anti-nausea meds nearby. Now that’s farming!

I’m not sure I want to know how one molests a dolphin!!?

“I don’t think it’s right for people to do things like that with fish.” –Marge Simpson

The bit about the dolphin was a joke of course. Dolphins are way too sophisticated to attend my alma mater. The student in question was actually a type of manta ray.

I have a great idea to add to your great idea. What if I tow the rotor to Amherst in a flatbed trailer behind an electric car, and use the wind as its going down the interstate to charge the batteries in my car. Then the faster and further I go the more charged up the batteries will be. Or am I missing something?

[goodcompanion]

@near horse 25178 wrote:

I saw it a long time ago when I still wanted to be a marine biologist:(

No great loss, you’re better off anyway. I knew a marine biologist once and he was a jerk. Also he got in hot water with the college for alleged sexual misconduct with a student, so that goes to show you too.

The student was a dolphin.

[goodcompanion]

The shaft is a piece of 1″ iron pipe. The bottom bearing is a chevy lumina wheel bearing. The top bearing is a basic sealed ball bearing unit that fits around the pipe shaft and is housed in a wood block. At the base is a big (6 foot diameter) drive disc with a rubber tire. This provides the gearing. The generator has a rubber inline skate wheel on its shaft and bears against the tire of the drive disc with no belt.

The gearing ratio is about 34 to one. Under about 11 mph wind (site average) the generator should run at about 1400-1700 rpm which is I think optimal. But the generator is an exercise treadmill motor and as such is designed to function at a variety of speeds. What goes for output also goes for input, so I’m told….

Victor designed it and the builders (me and a helper) made some slight changes as we went along. Sure is fun to watch it go. Whether this translates into the farmer-built self reliance I am hoping for will be borne out (or not) by the production data. I will report in with actual numbers soon.

As a mention this design will be widely available, along with a construction manual, at the conclusion of the project this summer. Assuming the production data are favorable enough for anyone to want to build one, that is.

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