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Nat(wasIxy)
Participant@mitchmaine 20812 wrote:
The ox fed us for sure, but civilization rode in on the back of a warhorse.
what about the pioneer wagons? didn’t they take ‘civilisation’ to america? what about opening up africa – horses couldn’t survive in many areas due to disease so they rode oxen. oxen have pulled cannons and other military equipment and even used for campaigns in africa (not too successfully AFAIK), and of course carried supplies and played a big part in the ‘civillising’ of australia. Undoubtedly horses are great for military and the actual fighting was done on a horse’s backs, but a soldier’s gotta eat!
ParticipantGood discussion I hadn’t noticed before and often wonder about. I do NOT think it’s as cut-and-dried as most people/horsepeople like to quote: horses are stronger/faster.
I have found my oxen to be certainly as strong as an equivalent-sized horse – my 800kg ox pushed my 1000kg car along the other day, sideways, for fun! 150kgs of that could be rumen fluid, so he has less msucle than an 800kg horse, too.
To be honest, my biggest problem with my simmental ox is that he’s too fast – as long as he is ‘on board’ with what we are doing, he likes to go at the speed of light! My hereford is slower, but will sustain a trot, unlike the simmental. They all certainly walk fast enough for my pace!
I think the reputation for being slow and weak comes from the fact that small breeds of cattle, fed on very meagre rations and not trained or harnessed sympathetically (out of necessity no doubt back then – I’m not judging!) are being compared to larger, grainfed, well harnessed and trained horses. My oxen are well fed and trained firmly but kindly, and I try to keep the harnessing comfortable the same as for a horse so I think it is a fairer comparison.
In this country at least, horses are something of a status symbol and were always a military/rich person’s thing. I think when the populace became wealthy enough to justify horses, they jumped at them because it was ‘progression’ for them. Roads were improved, and I can’t deny that horses would travel greater distances faster than an ox would – even though my oxen work fast I highly doubt they could keep a really fast pace (trotting) for hours on end so it is natural that horses would take over for that so road quality has a lot to do with it IMO. People also don’t want to be friends with their food seemingly, and have a hard time separating animals by individuals rather than species – ox = food horse = friend. For me, cattle can be friends OR food, likewise horses! My brain doesn’t have a problem justifying that.
Interestingly, according to what I’ve read, prior to tractors taking over altogether, oxen had waned in popularity before and horses had the upper hand, but oxen did make a comeback. When they again waned, shortly after tractors/cars arrived – who knows what would have happened?
ParticipantI find it better by far to leave the calf on – that way you are not tied to milking every day, maybe twice a day, come hell or high water. That’s a huge bind. If she is good to milk, she’s good to milk with or without a calf. The people I’m doing some work for at the moment maintain that once their holsteins have had a calf, they never let their milk down for human or machine ever again. I’ve not found that to be the case with my own, whatever the breed 9though I’ve never kept a pure holstein….hungry things 😉
ParticipantI would keep the horns, they are their crowning glory, like a horse’s mane and tail – they use them like hands, for scratching, flipping things over etc. If a bovine wnats to hurt you, they’ll do it with or without horns believe me. If they go for a fly at the wrong time, that’s an accident and could equally happen with their big hard head (I’ve been clouted accidentally a few times while they swipe for flies) or hooves, and we never consider taking the head or hooves off 😉 Some of our herd are horned, some are polled, it’s not a problem. My first ox was dehorned (not my decision) and I regret to this day ot forcing the issue to keep them 🙁 he looks naked without. Naturally polled cattle are different, they have a whole different head shape.
A mother reared 6 month old? Personally, I would not keep that one to be your first prospect at serious training – great to teach you about cattle and their behaviour, but I think a cow raised by humans has no dim memory of it’s life wild in the herd with it’s mother, and when it comes to the crunch in a bad situation – they look for guidance from you, their mother/herd and leader, rather than their instincts and those all-important initial memories.
I would urge you to get bovine company for your cow though, even if it’s a cheap jersey bull calf that you stick in the freezer – two are no more trouble than one, and they are so affectionate with each other, really cuddly unlike horses – they nestle down in the straw together, lick each other all over and they love to play, by head-wrestling, and she won’t be able to do that with you or the horses… 🙁
ParticipantI grew up pony-mad and had lessons for years, going on to work in 4 very different stables. That all changed as soon as I got a taste of oxen! I find working with oxen much better, they are far less ‘reactive to the environment’ as somebody said earlier. I like the calm atmosphere around them, and knowing you can pass plastic flapping in a breeze, or have a gate bang their side without worrying at all. Traffic can pass within inches of my oxen’s rumps and they won’t budge. And yet, despite what I was told I haven’t sacrificed any speed with my simmi! If anything he’s too fast…
Wet conditions? pah! nothing to an ox; mine waded through mud up to his hocks on our very first ride, I thought with me on his back I’d have to dismount in it, but it’s like it wasn’t there.
Training calves Vs. buying in? Got no choice in the UK! But, I’m glad, I feel I have a special bond with the animals I have reared and trained and really don’t know how I would have got on with fully trained and wise oxen…I’m thinking not good; they would have out-foxed me in no time!
Participanta good illustration of why oxen have gone down as weaker than horses there….
ParticipantI just wanted to add that I think you should just get Ayrshire oxen, they are hard to beat…
ParticipantI don’t think we will ever know for sure, so much of ox history seems lost forever in Britain, seemingly stamped out in favour of horse propaganda, but if these people were poor, knowing how much in the way of resources a heavy horses needs compared to a pony or ox, I think you’d be pretty safe discounting clydes!
ParticipantI’m constantly astounded by how intelligent our cattle are, to the point where I think pigs have an unfair reputation as the most intelligent farm animals!
I also like and eat animals, and try to treat them fairly, and agree wholeheartedly with skidmore’s comments!
ParticipantThinking of the image of highland life I have, would much draft have been used at all? Did they do arable or logging? Light draft such as packing goods and travel etc. could easily have been done by native ponies or equally, local cattle. If they were mostly just grazing stuff up in the mountains that would be all that was needed. Or is this place a bit lower and more hospitable for a bit more serious ‘farming’ rather than grazing and subsistence?
just thinking aloud…
ParticipantMine all have ‘grazing bellies’…..don’t much care as long as they do what they’re meant to! But, if they were skinny wee things with a big bloated belly that would signify a problem to me, perhaps worms?
August 31, 2010 at 6:12 pm in reply to: Training Questions: establishing dominance/stubborness #61882ParticipantSo far with mine the testing seems to come when they are just out of the teeny calf stage and starting to feel like they have some strength – this is when the battle of wills has occurred and each time I have sensed it and made SURE I won, come hell or high water – the one occasion I couldn’t win due to injury, the calf lost all respect and ended up as burgers. Then seemingly by the time they are 9mo+ they don’t even bother testing anymore. It still amazes me now that my simmental who is hundreds of kilos and could easily drag me all over the place does what I want. I’m also convinced and feel somewhat underserving that he truly trusts me – many small instances show me this and I’m humbled every time. My ayrshire is sick and I’m not working him as much as I normally would – I never had a battle of wills with him over anything, perhaps he will try when older?
Has he butted you before? Was it a playful nudge or an attack do you think? not that either should be tolerated but I think it helps you react fairly if know which direction it’s coming from! I’m thinking if it was a one-off, the reaction he got will have cured it, or it might take a couple more times for him to get the message, but not long – if it happens regular and the whacking isn’t helping, something is amiss.
I think if I had been given a meal and a massage and was just settling down for a nice rest, I would not feel too keen on getting out to work either. Dinner of anything other than forage is AFTER work here. (Grass/hay etc is OK though as you don’t want to be working a starving animal straining for every blade of grass it sees, with its mind elsewhere, either).
ParticipantOver here I think it’s very much a within-industry thing, few people with no contact with farming are even aware of the restrictions – it’s certainly not used in election campaigns. But I think that by forcing animals to stay rigidly on their farms or at shows and markets, it’s totally removing them from public consciousness; people just don’t get contact with livestock (or any of their food actually) anymore – out of sight out of mind, and it does mean that we don’t get public support when fighting things, because they just don’t have a clue what’s going on.
I’m hoping things will change if we keep jumping up and down for public attention – I like giving people who would otherwise not get the chance an opportunity to get up close and personal with farm animals, I like meeting the customers and answering questions all day long – more than anything I want them to care about and know about what they are putting in their mouths every day!
There’s also a lot of interest on TV – ‘country’ programmes are all over the place, and there was a week long series in spring about lambing which was hugely popular and I think has gone some way to updating ‘outsiders’ knowledge of the sheep industry, and I believe they are going to do another next year.
Participant@dlskidmore 20346 wrote:
I think farmers are more cohesive here, but they are still way outnumbered by the city folk without a clue when it comes to enacting laws.
I think most ‘city folk’ here would have no idea about the rules, and would just be delighted to see a ‘cow’ in such an incongruous situation, and get to touc and meet him – I’ve had people who were ‘cowphobic’ tell me that Angus cured them! lol
ParticipantOh you can go to shows and things, but you have to let them know the animal’s left your holding, then you have to tell them it’s got to the showground, then tell them it left the showground, and then tell them it got back to your holding. I don’t *think* there’s specifically any rule saying you couldn’t go for a wander, as I guess if you started on your holding and ended on your holding that would blow their mind, but there’s such hysteria over spread of disease (largely thanks to government mishandling of the diseases IMO) I think I’d face hostility from other farmers who’s land I passed, more than anything. I’d like to think we could stand by one another and collectively ignore the rules and get on with our lives, but it’d never happen, that’s why we’re in this situation in the first place – someone said to me recently that farmers wouldnt stick together if they were dropped in a vat of glue!
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