[jen judkins]

@Carl Russell 16251 wrote:

I nuked her and cleaned up all the PM’s. Sorry about that. I review each new member, but unfortunately I miss a few.

Carl

I got a couple from them, but was afraid to forward to you…so I just deleted them. How can they get access to our PM when they aren’t even a member yet?

[jen judkins]

Brontosaurus? What are you referring to? Sounds scary…

[jen judkins]

This is from one of my NOFA coleagues, Larry Savage. Nice coverage of the topic at least for NH…

“Regarding the USDA rules, if you sell individual cuts of meat to the public the meat must be slaughtered and inspected and packaged at a USDA approved facility with a USDA inspector on site. Packaging must have the following:

USDA inspection legend with plant #
Safe handling statement
Name and address of the USDA processor
Name of the cut contained in the package.

If a farmer wishes to have other information on the label, that label must be sent to Washington, DC for approval. Any claims made on the label must be backed up with appropriate records.

More information about USDA inspection and labeling can be found at the Food Safety and Inspection Service web site.

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Home/index.asp

An exception to the USDA inspection rule is for animals that are owned by an individual who wishes to process the meat for their use in their own home. These animals may be processed on the site where the animal was raised or at any other site the animal’s owner wishes to process the animal. This could be USDA approved site or any other custom meat processor or right on the farm.

We have not done this but a farmer may choose to sell live animals instead of meat. The farmer can line up customers and sell shares (or whole) animals to them. But it must be clear that the bill of sale states that the customer is buying a live animal. At that point the customer(s) can process the animal anyway they want because they own it. It would be prudent for the farmer not to be involved in the processing in order to avoid running afoul of the USDA regulations. But some farmers choose to process the animal for the customer at the farm or offsite and charge an extra service charge. I would not be too sure about the safety of that from a legal perspective.

Since the original post was about pigs, pigs present a special problem. We have not found a USDA processor which is acceptable to us as a slaughter facility AND a smokehouse. Blood Farm’s smoking is not USDA inspected while the rest of the plant is. So hams and bacon smoked there cannot be sold to the public.

The best smokehouse I have ever tasted is Fox Country Smokehouse in Canterbury, NH.

http://oldehousesmokehouse.com/about.php

They are USDA inspected for their smoking but they are not a slaughterhouse. So when we do pigs for the Savage family , we use a custom slaughterer who cuts the carcass and delivers the hams and bacon to Fox Country for us. These smoked items cannot be sold to the public because the pig was not USDA inspected during slaughter.

For a commercial operation, we would have to use a USDA inspected slaughter facility to produce the hams, bellies, chops, ribs and shoulders. Fresh pork could be packaged in that plant for sale to the public with proper labeling. The cuts to be smoked would be transferred to the smoke house where they can be smoked under USDA inspection. But here’s the rub. Fox Country doesn’t cut and package the smoked meat unless it is for sale in their own store. We would have to transfer the smoked primal cuts back to a USDA butcher for packaging into sale-able packaging. Needless to say all this is too expensive to be economically feasible.

If we did add pork to our products, we would consider using the live animal sale exception and use a custom processor that slaughters, cuts, smokes and packages the pork. We do have a custom processor in Bennington, NH that might be suitable if I can get him to improve his curing recipe for me.

For those that use the slaughter house in Gofftown, maybe their smoking is inspected but I don’t know. There may also be options for pork processing in Vermont as Sugar Mt. Farm is building a USDA inspected processing facility.

http://sugarmtnfarm.com/

This is very intriguing to me as I just found out about it. I’ll be looking into whether it will be open to the public or not. Walter’s blog and website at Sugar Mt. Farm is a must read for those interested in pork processing.

This is probably more information than can be absorbed in one sitting but there it is.

Larry Savage
Green Ledge Farm
472 Poor Farm Rd.
Francestown, NH 03043

Certified Organic and 100% grass fed beef
http://www.greenledgefarm.com/”

[jen judkins]

LOL…I forgot where I was and just tried to hit the ‘like’ button!:D

[jen judkins]

I agree with Dennis, Jean…its time to lose the training wheels…he’ll be fine….you’ll be fine:p

[jen judkins]

I personnally don’t have preference…but have a late gelded gelding who will become difficult when you add a mare to the mix. Because of his tendency, I have never really had the chance to work with a mare on my own farm.

I’ve been told by many a polo player that mares have more ‘heart’ than geldings and they are preferred on the polo field. I rode a mare playing polo one season and have never since had a better time on a horse…:D

[jen judkins]

@Carl Russell 15858 wrote:

Jen, it is hard to believe but even though Kristen owned those pigs and she fed them and helped kill them, the fact that they were raised on my land made them my pigs and it was illegal to sell them to her that way.
Carl

See I think that is subject to interpretation. If a person buys a pig and pays me to raise it, whose pig is it? They pay the feed bill then decide on how they want it butchered…sounds like ownership to me. Kind of similar to boarding a horse at a stable….just because the horse lives there, doesn’t mean the stable has ownership of the animal.

Thanks for all the comments, everyone. I’m still formulating my plan. I certainly want to play by the rules, but I think there is some wiggle room in the interpretation of the law and my clients may actually prefer to haul their pig over to a USDA facility, making it a moot point.

[jen judkins]

Boy, you two have certainly come a long way to acheive your goals! From working off-farm to now full time on the farm and all you’ve accomplished with the horses over the past 2 years….very inspiring! Congratulations!

[jen judkins]

If you are interested in building another…I would buy one. 😀

[jen judkins]

@Rick Alger 14756 wrote:

Many years ago my grandparents had a horse that wouldn’t stand for harnessing and was very hard to catch. As a kid, my father used to ride this horse bareback because it ran “like the cowboy horses”.

One time Dad got swept off the horse by a tree branch about a mile from home. He was knocked out and had a broken arm. The high strung horse came back and stood while Dad wrestled himself back on.

Rick, one of my very first revelations with my first horse (I still own him) was a time when we were out in the Rocky Mountains. I was still a very average rider and I had draw reins on to help me control this horse (note: this was not necessary…just didn’t know better). We encountered some wildlife and things got alittle crazy. I fell off and landed in a creek. Manny hated water…would not step a foot in it if asked at the time (I’ve cured him of that since). But he stood over me in running water…shaking with fright…till I got up and managed to wade to dry land. He has always come through for me when it was necessary since…regardless of whether I have been in a position to help. Its this type of connection or loyalty…or whatever you want to call it that makes the horse special and worthy of understanding.

[jen judkins]

@Carl Russell 14739 wrote:

I am not taking you to task, just clarifying that for me it is not becoming more horse-like. It in fact is a true growth of the human character. I feel that through working with horses I have learned how they react to my behavior which has helped me to become a more honest, sober, and present human.

I agree, Carl. That’s definately a key component to the process. But whether you acknowledge it or not, learning how communication works between you and your horses, does indeed, make you more horse like. Those who have successful partnerships with equines show many of the following qualities or abilities…

use more body language and fewer words.
use energy more efficiently (uses less, with better timing or feel)
maintains a calm, centered presence
becomes more perceptive to changes in their environment
are less prone to emotional outbursts

I have to go to work now, but those are a few examples. We’re human and not horses, obviously. But when in rome….

[jen judkins]

@Carl Russell 14667 wrote:

It’s kind of interesting how many of us refer to the emotional growth we go through while learning to work with horses. As a culture we really don’t address individual emotional well-being. We are all sort of left out there to fend for ourselves. There are so many ways that people learn to avoid the emotional human experience, drugs, money, sex, work, etc… we just learn to avoid learning anything about how our emotions work… or how to allow ourselves to function emotionally.

Its interesting and, quite honestly, validating to hear you bring out the obvious benefits to the human who endeavors to be more horselike. Like Carl, I was an overly sensitive child and I struggled with the overwhelming emotional incongruity I felt from friends, family and those who should be my role models. Perhaps it is this innate sensitivity that allows us to appreciate our equine partners so much.

Horses are not judgemental like people tend to be. Its always felt like such an honor to be so well thought of by my horses, in spite of my obvious flaws. They appear to be nearly agendaless, except for the simple basics. So working with horses became sort of ‘safe zone’…a place where it was ok to experiment with different forms of expression..to learn about the effects of emotionality. The feedback was immediate and without judgement. You can’t fake calm and centered with a horse…you have to create it somehow and that state did not come naturally to me:rolleyes: The result was that I was not only learning to communicate with these awesome animals, but I was building a solid foundation for learning to live with my own emotions…how to use them effectively, how to control them without ignoring them, how to dissipate a powerful outburst. I’ll always have more trouble with people in this regard. The equation is just more complicated by several powers. But I continue to hope for the best…

BTW, Jim, I loved Kohanov’s books….haven’t met too many loggers who’ve read them 😉

[jen judkins]

I’d be interested, J-L to hear how that goes…

I was at a clinic some years ago and we had a woman there with her ‘highstrung’ TB. In all truth, it was her that was high strung, lol. The horse could not stand still…jigged around the woman like a kite on a string. She asked me to hold onto her horse while she went to use the facilities.

No word of a lie….the moment the lead fell into my hands and the woman turned to leave the arena…the horse planted his feet and put his nose on the ground. Didn’t move a muscle until she returned.

[jen judkins]

I can’t believe I missed this thread. Its a good one and a topic very near to my heart. So I hope no one minds my late arrival:D

I agree, Donn that horses are amazingly adaptable and I am always amazed at the ‘conditions’ they will thrive in. But just because they adapt, does not always make it ideal. Personally, I think the human has the responsibility to adapt to the horse’s perspective, mainly because it is our agenda we are ‘forcing’ upon the horse. While we like to call it a partnership, most of our endeavors with horses are not things a horse would choose to do. We have to constantly keep the horse’s perspective in mind and present our agenda in a way they understand and can feel confidant about. It takes time and study, but, as Grey points out, it is a time saving investment in the long run (assuming one has long term goals working with horses)’

While I agree that horses in general respond to a calm, centered presence, there are times when alittle energy needs to be injected into the equation. At my house, I can see the horses from nearly every window and not a day goes by when I don’t pause to watch them at some point during the day. There are lots of things to observe about their behavior, as you all know. But in general, when left to their own devices the herd maintains a peaceful order, wandering from their feed to the water trough or to their napping areas. They have times when they play or groom each other, but its a very quiet, low energy existance. But sometimes the energy dials up. Something strange comes down the road, or the alpha is moving a youngster away from his pile of hay. There is quick movement that lasts for seconds…minutes at best and then its instantly back to their quiet baseline. I have always been fascinated by this….energy without emotion. Its like martial arts…strike…retreat…reassess.

People are far more complicated in regard to how they process emotions and interpersonal relationships and this is what gets them into trouble with horses (myself included at times). I see a couple of common tendencies in people having trouble with horses. The first is the person (usually a woman:rolleyes:) who cannot be assertive without being mad. This is not effective with horses for a couple of reasons. First, if you wait til you feel anger to assert yourself with a horse, you’ve probably waited too long and have been ineffective. Second, by getting to the point you feel anger, you are generally not in control enough to dial that energy down quickly enough to make any gains in training. The emotion involved is too distracting to both horse and trainer to stay focused on the task at hand in any meaningful way.

The second scenario has to do with ‘congruance’. People have the unique (at least I think it is unique) ability to feel one emotion (fear, anger, frustration) and pretend to feel something else (confident, happy). I’m not sure horses understand this very well and I think they find it confusing. Even though I don’t think horses are much like dogs, I think most animals share an instinct that allows them to sense basic emotions like fear and aggression. So despite the image a person presents, horses have the ability to sense this type of energy, despite the incongruity, if it is present. Horses, in particular, being prey animals, actually use this ability to survive. But the point is, again, this confusion is distracting and detracts from meaningful communication.

Working with horses is awe-inspiring and humbling. When things aren’t going right, I can always find the source of the problem within myself, if I choose to look hard enough. They never lie. Horses have taught me to stay calm and centered, use energy efficiently (as little as necessary) and effectively (enough to get my point across) without emotion, and then be able to instantly dial back down to baseline. When I can’t….I have to walk away and try again later.

I just wish people were as good at giving reliable feedback:eek:!

[jen judkins]

Thanks Mitch….this is a very good illustration of how I have underestimated the draft powered farmer….I guess I just don’t have a good head for hitches:D. You guys are serious engineers…

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