[jen judkins]

You mean there is actually a magazine devoted to the sport!:eek::p

[jen judkins]

Does anyone know when that draft horse barrel race is?:p

[jen judkins]

Matt, I think if you look closer, you will find that I posted those videos on youtube;). I have not personnally tried the mounted shooting….so far I have simply parked my horse in the vicinity to see his reaction. Last year he tried to jump back in the trailer through the window:o. This year he was unphazed.

I’m not a gun person, so may never try it, but it does look fun!

What’s a Darwin Award?

[jen judkins]

@Plowboy 6488 wrote:

Good luck with your 4 up but you better not ride any of those, your feet will drag and slow them down.

duh!!!:D:p:D

[jen judkins]

@Ronnie Tucker 6478 wrote:

when i work four mules to the log cart i ride the near wheeler and drive the lead team with one line ronnie tucker tn logger

So Ronnie, I am assuming (I hope correctly) that there is no one else on the cart….just you on the near wheeler? Why do you do it this way?

See I like that concept. I would much rather be on one of their backs than in the cart. Why is this better? Or is it just a preference?

[jen judkins]

OK, you guys are awesome! I’m getting a picture!

But in the movie the rider was on the nigh lead horse, not the wheel horse (he was not doing any driving)….perhaps this is an error on the part of the film maker?

Plowboy…I seem to be accumulating miniature horses..probably a curse that befell me when I proclaimed to Carl that minis were under represented at NEAPFD last year. In any case, yes, I am thinking of a 4 up hitch. Its kind of cheating, I know, but would be good practice for the big boys:p

[jen judkins]

@drybranchfarm 6476 wrote:

In fact, early freighters, horse drawn freight wagons, would drive a team of 4 or 6 horses with just one line to the near lead horse and would ride the near wheel horse, or sit on the lazy board, a board that slid out to the left of the wagon, in front of the rear wheel.

I don’t understand this description (though I appreciate it nonetheless). Might as well get all my questions about multiple hitches answered.

Which is the near horse? the wheel horse? I always thought the wheel horses were closest to the carriage. But that doesn’t coincide with what I saw in the film.

Pressing on…how do you decide how to put horses in a big hitch? Are there horse characteristics that make a team better in front or close to the cart? Do you put the bravest horses in the lead, stongest near the rig? Just guessing here…

[jen judkins]

@Rob FLory 6475 wrote:

Donn and Jenn, We are all striving for a relationship with our horses in which they work with minimal pressure. But what do we do when that is not enough? It is not really a “suggestion” when there is a correct response, is it?. A suggestion implies that compliance is optional.

Rob, again my comments probably did not take into account your ‘specific’ issue, just random thoughts about leadership. Its not that I don’t have some issues with my horses as well, and you are right…when there is opposition, a suggestion is not good enough (because I don’t want my horses to choose the wrong answer);). We have to be effective with our intention, then follow through to the correct response. Its hard sometimes…I’m certainly not getting any younger. When teaching Reno to stand still for his shots…in the beginning I had to stay with him, applying pressure until he stopped moving….its definately not easy sometimes. Thankfully he is not a biter:eek:.

In my opinion, it is consistency that teaches a horse to depend on you or believe you are trustworthy. That will vary from trainer to trainer, but the regular use of consistent pressure and release, should produce trust. And trust (ie safety) should create a working relationship that allows you to teach whatever it is you want. Without the trust, however, you will need to resort to force, which, if I have read your comments correctly, will not serve your end result.

In regard to your specific problem….I would forget about handling this horses feet in his stall….for now. Everytime you do and he freaks out, you lose his trust (and you get hurt). Concentrate on what works and not on what doesn’t. When you are shoeing him without problem in the yard, then you can consider working on handling him in the stall. Forget the agenda as much as possible and focus on the relationship. Push the envelope, yes…but don’t go so far that he loses confidence. Most people with a specific problem feel they have to push the horse past the issue. But in reality, sometimes all it takes is waiting for the horse to relax and reconsider. Then quit. This is where understanding horse body language comes in handy.

Just yesterday, I was approaching one of my foster horses with a syringe of meds. He moved away from me (wrong answer), I continued to approach, until I saw the hint that he might turn and face me. Before he could turn, I left the enclosure completely and went to do something else. When I returned some time later, he was waiting and I gave him his drench without any opposition. My point is, that sometimes you have to give up the plan to make progress. It may not be something you are in a position to do…I don’t know. I’m certainly not working my horses day in and out for a living, so take my thoughts with a grain, if you will.

I look forward to hearing more about your progress.

[jen judkins]

I’ve been meaning to post an update on Andre’s ‘big grey gelding’, Reno….and I will….promise, but I had to chime in here with this thread in regard to him.

Reno has recently been receiving 4 IM shots of antibiotics a day. These are big volume (he is afterall a big horse) shots…2 are nearly 20 ccs. For those of you who haven’t had to inject a horse…its tricky usually. Stick the needle in, wait for them to stop moving, then hook up the syringe and hope they stand still while you push the plunger (probably about 1 second per cc). To add to the complication, I give the larger volume shot in the neck, followed immediately by a shot in the butt.

In general, shots of this volume generally take two people…one to distract and control the horse, the other manning the needle and syringe.

Unfortunately, I do everything by myself on my farm. So I knew I would have to get Reno on board for these injections somehow. I had been working on him lowering his head for haltering (as I am quite abit shorter than Andre) and this was going extremely well, a testament to his earlier training and willingness to learn probably more than anything else. But it set us up to work together and that helped me with the job at hand IMO.

I did halter and tie Reno the first day…and parked him in the place I had designated. Then I injected the first shot. I had to say ‘whoa’ several times…but I made sure I stopped the injection each time he stood still…just briefly and praised him lavishly when he remained still. Then I repeated the same with his butt injection. He was more fidgety with this, but I continued with my plan.

I kept a halter on him for 3 days, but did not need to tie him, though I parked him in the same spot. I had to reinforce less and less, mostly just a verbal ‘whoa’. After the 3rd day, I simply walked up to him, asked him to ‘whoa’ and proceeded with the shots without a halter or line. We just finished 2 weeks of this.

I’m amazed at what a horse can learn and how they can cooperate. Reno has had some good early training from Andre. All I had to do was convince him that I could be a good leader too (not easy to do wielding needles).

So I don’t think it is absolutely necessary that a horse be exhausted to be able to stand. Perhaps this is more true for a youngster, as a training tool.

BTW, Reno turned the corner this week and is clearly getting better…more soon.

[jen judkins]

@Carl Russell 6396 wrote:

I must say that I don’t want submissive horses either, and although I must be indomitable in my own initiative, I believe that I can produce a relationship with my horses that comes pretty darn close to partnership, without needing submission, but by affirming leadership.

I like the way this is put. As I was cleaning up the paddock and feeding tonight, I was thinking about dominance…what it is and what it isn’t. As I pulled the wheel barrow around I observed that my horses accept my presence without feeling the need to move unless I ask them to. It occured to me that the relationship we have is not a reactive one. In otherwords, I have become trustworthy enough, for them to accept my presence and wait for my initiative. In moving them out of my way, I, in no way, feel dominant…I simply feel like the one who chooses how things work. Its easy…I make a suggestion and they comply.

[jen judkins]

@Hal 6377 wrote:

Jen, why would your explanation annoy some people on the forum?

I don’t really like most forms of round penning. I think the round pen is misused, more often than not.

There are many people (not necessarily here on this forum) who abuse their advantage in the round pen to dominate a horse without considering the horses’ need for safety and comfort. Being in a round pen with a horse can feel like a very powerful tool. The trainer has alot of leverage over the horse and this power can be very easily misused.

I tried to keep that ‘tone’ out of my response, in an effort to remain objective…apparently successfully…so maybe I am getting better at this forum talk:cool:

[jen judkins]

@Rob FLory 6380 wrote:

Round pen training is great, but I’m not convinced that a dominance-based method is the best way to deal with fear. There is a lot of variation of psychology in horses. I think there is room for many tools in the training box.

Dominance is very important, but I think what we are dealing with is a horse who is afraid because dominance was applied unwisely.

I’m glad you brought that up, Rob, as my response to round penning did not take into account your original post:rolleyes:.

Horses have their own agenda in regard to cooperating with humans. They need to feel safe before you can effectively use energy and pressure to communicate with them. This is why, when you went back to the stall, your horse’s behavior regressed so badly. You can use round penning to get a fearful horse less fearful…of you, their trainer…or of a scarey object like ropes, saddles or rasp…but that doesn’t appear to be the problem here. So I think you are right, the round pen will not help you with this problem. And I also agree that dominance, applied with agression, definately leads to these unwanted behavioral issues, unfortunately.

I would hazard a guess that you will likely never be able to shoe this horse in a stall. Why would you want to anyway? Why re-create a scarey situation for him when you can shoe him somewhere else?

[jen judkins]

I think we were typing at the same time:D

[jen judkins]

@Robert MoonShadow 6371 wrote:

The article I just read the other day that I believe it was Jen who linked us to was about Salatin… seems he layers barley/corn/etc. in the compost as he piles it up… kinda sprouts the grain that way or something = evidently the hogs love it.

Nope, wasn’t me…it was Elke. And it was a great article! I’m gonna raise a couple piglets in my manure shed this year (sorry, Rod).

[jen judkins]

This is a great thread! Thanks for the detail, Carl!

Looking back at my own ‘logging’ experience with Peanut, I realize that Ted set us up for light loads and only the last load was the least bit tricky (had to pull the tree around some tight spots to get onto the skid trail). On my own, I would have had no idea how to start.

I have gotten my brother interested in doing some logging this summer at my place. I think if I had someone to man the chainsaw, I could manage the skidding. We’ll see…

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