[jen judkins]

Ivy, I know nothing about oxen, just horses, but would it help to ‘park’ them in front of a fence or a log or some physical suggestion to not go forward while you work on that? My other thought is that you will likely need to reinforce the ‘whoa’ cue on-line and have them responding to your voice pretty consistently (without any need for reinforcement) before you are likely to be very successful off-line (as Tevis has already suggested). Like I said, I’m not a cow person, so take my advice with that disclaimer, 😎 Good Luck! Jennifer.

[jen judkins]

Well, I have been thinking about the recent exchange and I feel like I stepped over the line abit, by being unclear in my post. I apologized to Neil privately, but I think he probably deserves a public one. I did not mean to imply that he used ‘fear and intimidation’ with his horses. In fact, I have had a suspicion for some time that Neil is actually a really nice guy…the evidence lying in his success with his horses….which was the point I was trying to make. Though looking at the words…it certainly did not read that way.

I’ve been on dozens of froums and have moderated many as well and I am always surprised at how much trouble I can get into without even trying:cool:

So thanks, Rod for the reminder and sorry everyone. I’ll definately try harder. Jennifer.

[jen judkins]

Andy, any time you increase speed, you increase the volume of stimlus (or stimuli, I guess), so its like turning up the volume…some like it…some don’t.

I think Erica’s point is valid…you don’t know you can be in trouble till you are. At that point, its important that you have some idea of how things ought to turn out….or have enough experience to know its not the end. I’m not there so I wonder alot about it, lol.:confused: Jennifer.

[jen judkins]

Wow, thanks for the links, Erica! That looks like fun! If you can do that, I imagine there wouldn’t be too much trouble you could get into on the farm, huh?!

Have you seen this one? As usual your links got me looking at a dozen more…but I have to get some work done now, lol! Jennifer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv0bt-3fo7A&NR=1

[jen judkins]

@Carl Russell 3233 wrote:

I don’t think that horses equate fear with running, as much as they may equate running with fear. In other words they charge around the pasture for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with fear. Although they may be inclined to run when scared, consistent work interrupting that reflex will have its affect in any situation, and I think it is erroneous to assume that when they run they become scared.

I didn’t mean to imply that every horse experiences fear everytime they canter or gallop, lol! Just that it is common for a young horse to link the two together the first time or two and that it might be a good idea to plan that well in advance of the real deal.

It may simply be that I am skewed in my experience too, as I work primarily with TBs and Arabs in my saddle work…much different breeds than most drafts. In fact, I had to laugh, Carl while reading your story about the steer. My arab cross would have killed himself and wrecked the hitch to vacate the premises in that situation. But again perhaps that is just my expectation of him, given what we have experienced together in the past.

I beginning to realize how important our focus is in working closely with an animal…what we expect, what we want to happen, what we worry might happen…all play a role in outcomes. Some have said, they haven’t even thought about cantering their drafts in harness, so why would their horses even think about doing it? It may simply be a matter of intention.

Good points as usual, Carl. Thanks. Jennifer.

[jen judkins]

@Neil Dimmock 3226 wrote:

He didnt ask any questions just made coments

And the crime here is what? Comment, question, who cares….still requires a thoughtful response (or no response at all). Part of being a mentor and a teacher (which btw you are whether it is your intention or not, given your considerable talent) is to foster an environment of learning in which students or colleagues exchange ideas for the common good.

Back in the day, when I was a surgical resident, many of my mentors were very hard to learn from…they were just down right mean. I did learn quite alot from them, but the quality of that learning experience was very low and it was fear based. I had ulcers and was terribly sleep deprived…scared to screw up…just a terrible experience (I feel sorry for the patients I was charged to care for:o). Were it not for some really quality mentors and my horses, who bring me back to the center, I would likely be a very f*&^%$ed up individual.

So it surprises me that you have such considerable talent with horses, but seem to struggle abit with people. I highly doubt you are successful as you are with horses using fear and intimidation. So why use it with people? I ‘get’ that people can be more challenging in many ways, but I think expectations make for reality. Anyone successful with horses, knows that force and coercion might work for a day, but not in the long run. We all have to seek cooperation to make things work. We have to expect things will work out, that our horses aren’t intentionally triing to be wrong, that they want to learn and be part of the team. I don’t think it is a bad idea to treat people the same way. Jennifer.

[jen judkins]

Mike, That makes sense to me…BUT I’m still struggling somewhat with the idea that our physical control over our horses despite bits and leverage have limits when it comes to a true bolting situation, where the horse(s) are truly scared and running. If you don’t somehow simulate that event and figure out how it will all end up, don’t you run the risk of simply having to ‘drive as fast as they can run’ until they come back? That might be pretty easy in a big field or a broad dirt road, but what about on a narrow alley or a rocky trail?

I’m not generally a ‘what if’ type of person:rolleyes:, but I have a few patients in my practice who have had some serious injuries (nearly catastrophic) driving a cart. So while I’d like to believe it is as simple as you say, I know ‘it depends’. We don’t always have the control over our horses, we think we do. I have to admit, when I see Neil and his big hitch cantering around the field, I think, there’s someone who is prepared to go for a ride if need be. Lets face it, if you practice cantering a 1 or 2 or 8 (or 46) horse hitch often enough, don’t you prepare for that worst case scenario? Learn the skills necessary to ride out the widowmaker?

Maybe it is indeed simply a leadership issue as you imply, but I’m not convinced. Are there risks to cantering in harness….like risk of injury from parts of the hitch to the horse? Jennifer.

[jen judkins]

I heard this morning that these boys found a home…not sure where, but they are unavailable now. Jennifer

[jen judkins]

Hey guys, I think there is plenty of room on this board for everyone’s opinion. I don’t think its important that we all agree…..I, for one, benefit greatly from the hottest debates here and read every word carefully to assess its application in my own situation. I cringe, however (and I am sure I am not alone) when the replies get personal. Those of us here on DAP who know Carl Russell, know he needs no defending for his deep commitment to draft animal power and his passion for the art of working a draft animal as a partner. Neil, your skill as a teamster, should in my opinion, make you immune to insult, as there is nothing to defend in what you do either. I love your showmanship and you have provided many points of valuable insight for me and most likely many others in your posts. I find it hard to believe that you could feel rattled enough by someone’s legitimate comment about cantering in harness, to feel the need to personally insult them. I actually have questions about the subject myself (I will create a new thread later) and would love to have any and all opinions I can find. I have no interest in personal insults, and negativity. Its important on these forums to go out of our way to show respect and tolerance in our replies…its hard enough to decipher what folk really mean in an email format. So lets share the knowledge and not get stuck in the mud here. Thanks. jennifer.

[jen judkins]

Welcome, Andrew. I will enjoy hearing about how you bring your team along! You will find a wealth of information here and alot of inspiration to keep you going. Jennifer.

[jen judkins]

Bill, I just called the phone number and it does work. The owners name is Ann and she prefers to correspond by phone. The pair are still available, but she is getting lots of calls, so if you have interest, I would get on it. Jennifer.

[jen judkins]

Hopefully this works…

[jen judkins]

Thanks, Elke…that was extremely helpful! The photos are great. Several of them show what I am triing not the do and that is to be hauled around by my horse’s mouth, lol. The close up is key…I wonder if I can make something myself…hmmm. Anyway…appreciate the info. Jennifer.

[jen judkins]

Neil, I don’t think Jean was saying to never graze a horse on fall pasture, just that if you HAVE CONCERNS about a horse (say, because they are prone to founder) it wouldn’t be a good idea. The original poster I believe had some concerns about the grass for his horses. I made a flippent remark, but it is true that I, myself have a fat mini, that has to be locked in the barn spring and fall to avoid pasture laminitis, so the issue is real for some horses.

I do believe, however, that horses who have as natural a lifestyle as possible, who have enough acreage to move and live in a herd where the social hierarchy is preserved will not be likely to have issues with any pasture arrangement. It is when you limit movement, limit free choice feeds and minerals that horses get out of whack and get metabolic. So, Neil, its no surprise you have not had issues, given your acreage and turnout arrangement (from your photos, looks like everyone is out together as a herd). Down here in the lower 50, space it more of an issue and so are a number of other problems, lol. Jennifer.

[jen judkins]

Drummond, How far are you from Quebec? The winter carnival is always a spectacular event! The eleven town race is a new event and I don’t know any details yet.

In regards to equipment. The competitive version is pretty simple, saddle with breast collar (recommended) and a tow rope clipped to the back of the cantle. We generally rig a big carabiner with mountain climbing webbing tied to the saddle rigging. The tow rope has to attach to the middle of the cantle and has to be a maximum of 3 inches off the cantle (can’t slide or jiggle about) ….its a safety issue. Some horses will need a crupper depending on their build as the skiier can really rock the saddle back and forth (very strange sensation to get used to by both horse and rider). Tow rope is generally a cotton 5/8″ line and cannot be longer than 33 feet. The course is generally 1000 feet long give or take. The jumps are 4 feet (at our events, higher out west) and there are a dozen or so ‘gates’ the skier needs to navigate correctly to avoid penalties. There are also hanging rings, that the skier needs to pick up on their way by to avoid penalties. Pretty straight forward. The speed is fast…the really top horses can get up to 40 mph…but with speed generally comes more skiier error. So a team with a horse in the middle of the pack for speed can usually score big if they have a good skier.

Training wise, there’s not much to it. The horse just needs to get used to a skier chasing them. Since there is a rider, it can be accomplished pretty quickly. In my case, I have a kind of slow horse, so I haven’t completely desensitized him to the skier. Because of that I get alot more speed out of him. Most horses will readily pull a skier who is skiing right behind them (in their blind spot). Its when the skier starts coming in and out of each eye, back and forth that they can initially come unglued…so you just have to have the skier adjust to the level of the horse’s confidence in the beginning. I’ve seen one team use blinders, but its pretty uncommon.

The traditional skijoring is alittle trickier. Its more like driving and it can definately be done in harness, since there is no skier. There aren’t any rules, and I definately go with a shorter tow rope. The problem is how to attach yourself to the horse in a way that allows you to disconnect in an emergency or in case of a fall. I’ve tried using a windsurfing harness, but have been dragged pretty far before it released…so I’m back to the drawing board. I’d appreciate anyone’s thoughts on that piece…its definately where I am hung up right now.

Jennifer.

[Author]

Posts