[Jim Ostergard]

Good for you Carl. One of the special things about DAP is the civil way folks interact. I think this encourages folks to ask questions without embarrassment or fear of someone making them fell, “less than.” Thanks for all your effort here.
Jimbojim

[Jim Ostergard]

Thanks Joel, I will try that. Figure he will get the idea after a while?
Jim

[Jim Ostergard]

Well Carl, don’t think you are old yet even though you certainly can qualify as an old timer. I think those of us who got to work with some of these guys were indeed blessed. I’ve got loads of stories both from the woods and the sea and am happy for that history.
Interesting the differences in region vis a vis trucking. We still have some small independents here and a few of them are young guys. Most however have either been cutting wood or hauling it for over 20 years.
I just bought a neat old log truck. Just came off the road 3 years ago. Bought it for the loader (JD) which I hope to put on a small trailer I can haul to the site with the pick-up and then around the site with the horse if needed. Probably sell the truck as an antique. If I had the money I would love to have it on the road with my signage on it. I realized last week as I shipped a load of tree-length pine pulp which I had hand stacked in two piles so the trucker would not have to move that at 68 I just couldn’t do that anymore. Almost didn’t take a nice red pine job thinking about rolling the logs into a decent pile. Low and behold an ad appeared for this ark, I sort of knew the guy and now its in my door yard. So, shortly I will be able to not get depressed about handling wood.
jimbojim

[Jim Ostergard]

1) What is the consensus and/or discussion on what I’ve mentioned so far?

“Go for it”

2) Throw out some names for the effort. Ideally ones that could carry over into the eventual association. Key words could/would be; draft, forestry, logging, powered, animal, international, etc..

“International Draft Animal Forestry Initiative (IDAFI)”
“International Draft Powered Forestry Association”

3) Mission statement. This should be 1-3 sentences at most.

“To promote positive impact forest management using draft animals and appropriate technology”

“To facilitate the international connection between draft animal forestry practitioners, exchanging information, providing benefits of association (i.e. insurance, cooperative marketing, etc.), and advocating toward mutual goals.”

4) Goals. List five goals, in order of priority, for this effort. Clear, concise, and limited to one complete sentence.

”Work with researchers to study and publish ecological benefits of animal logging.”

”Work to establish a separate and reasonable Worker’s Comp category for animal loggers.”

“To develop some sort of state or regional organization to help with training new and upcoming horse loggers Get more awareness to the general public find and promote new ways to use animal power to enhance our forest world wide!”

“More government help to land owners in the form of tax or cash payments to maintain there woodlots, help and encouragement in new technologies to make our work safer and more profitable, the workmen’s comp idea is great and more networking!”

b. develop districts- we had north west, mid west, south west, south, south east, north east, each district needs a director.

“We need a way to rate or insure performance and praise a job well done”

”A place to advertise services, tools, and equipment

“To develop a network of information sharing, such as websites, e-newsletter, and hard-copy newsletter to support /(and promote)/ the international community of draft animal forestry practitioners”

”To improve opportunities for draft animal forestry practitioners to unite regionally, and internationally, to share information, work, markets, and advocacy.”

“To serve as an official body to support collaboration, research and demonstration with all interest groups on the issues of sustainable forestry including, governmental, non governmental organizations (NGO), academic institutions, municipalities, private landowners and those individuals interested in actually doing this work.”

[Jim Ostergard]

In the woods,wicked hot so short days scooting wood out and flagging lines. Glad not to be running the 441 in 92 degree weather.

[Jim Ostergard]

What an awesome thread! In my limited experience, it is all about where I am at on the day of work. A couple of years ago I had Rusty and another horse at a barn some distant from my house. Monday morning and all the way to the barn I was getting more and more up-tight. Had three jobs going and couldn’t figure out which landowner would be less pissed off at me as I had been real slow getting things done. Got out of the truck, walked over to the fence and they both turned and walked out to the pasture. They sure picked up on my vibe. Back to the truck, a cup of tea and some calming thoughts then we were able to get off. As a logger with the unfortunate almost locked in production mentality I always have my best days when I allow me and Rusty to just do what we have to do and stay in the present. He is super at those time. I cannot stress again how much knowledge and introspection has gone into this thread and to me this is a major part of what our community is about.
jimbojim

[Jim Ostergard]

Originally Posted by Scott G
…….
So, all of that said lets get down to details. I will outline several point by point below. Please respond to them in the same fashion for ease of organization.

1) What is the consensus and/or discussion on what I’ve mentioned so far?
It sounds as though the consensus is that networking via an international communication effort is primary with the end goal being the formation of an international association based on input from contributors & subscribers.
I agree with this.

2) Throw out some names for the effort. Ideally ones that could carry over into the eventual association. Key words could/would be; draft, forestry, logging, powered, animal, international, etc..
International Draft Animal Forestry Initiative (IDAFI)

3) Mission statement. This should be 1-3 sentences at most.
To facilitate the international connection between draft animal forestry practitioners, exchanging information, providing benefits of association (ie. insurance, cooperative marketing,etc.), and advocating toward mutual goals.

4) Goals. List five goals, in order of priority, for this effort. Clear, concise, and limited to one complete sentence.
1. to establish an international directory of associations, organizations, and individuals who are supporting the work of draft animal forestry practitioners.

2. to develop a network of information sharing, such as websites, e-newsletter, and hard-copy newsletter to support the international community of draft animal forestry practitioners.

3. to form an association to support the international community of draft animal forestry practitioners.

4. to improve opportunities for draft animal forestry practitioners to unite regionally, and internationally, to share information, work, markets, and advocacy.

5. to advance an ecological perspective of forest management, based on the use of draft animals, and other low impact/low input strategies.
I think we have a good start here and would sign on for adoption of the above. We can flesh them out with a series of actions under each of the goals as we move along. I think we all feel this is a dynamic approach so seems nothing is cast in stone and cannot be changed upon reflection.
On the newsletter issue; how about a new thread where we can share ideas of the kinds of things we would like to see and then maybe a few of us can work through email to put a first issue together? Some good ideas for content have been put forward and I can list them on the thread, ideas?
Jim

[Jim Ostergard]

If its a motion, I will second it regarding voting rights for practicing horse loggers and membership for others.
Jim O

[Jim Ostergard]

I’ve been off-line for most of the week so will briefly add here. I agree on getting our objectives nailed down. Also would like not to rush. I try to think things through on my hour and a half drive to the skidder job each day and find myself too tired to write when I get home. Horse work this week will balance things a lot better so I will work on getting more thoughts together.
I think the idea of a general membership of folks other than those of us who are out there most days with the horses is good as Gregg suggested. We may find some unexpected support for our objectives in a larger audience. I do feel pretty strongly that the core group (at least to get us started) would be best made up of serious horse loggers. I think it will help to keep things in focus.
When we get to the newsletter Rick’s idea of us printing it out and then sending it to folks we know who may then become connected to the site is grand. I can think of about half a dozen folks I would fire one off to and four of them log and or farm with animals but are not likely to be found here.
Jimbojim

[Jim Ostergard]

Most groups I’ve worked with have a board which can be large and then an executive group or committee which is smaller and can make decisions for the full board. I think we might go for something like that.

[Jim Ostergard]

On the newsletter front, I am trying to figure out what it might take. I know from another life that one can figure about 40 hours for a simple 4-6 page 8 X 11 folded thing. Thats assuming some help with writing. Pagination is another thing. I’ve loads of experience with traditional paste up and for many years the best computer program for that also. Alas, the program is no longer made it has morphed into an Adobe product that goes for $700. I have started looking for a community organizing grant to maybe buy that, and I would buy it in a heartbeat if I had the dough. However, with a new (very old) log loader and pick up repairs and busted frame on horse trailer….how familiar does this sound?
I will be happy to continue to look into the newsletter thing if folks would like me to. The adobe product will do web newsleters and PDF. I think I can get a demo version and if it is a morph of the old product the learning curve should be fast. If not well that is time to be swallowed if we get to that point. Would like to hear some simple ideas on content. Lets start a wish list of what we would like to have in it. Pictures, color, etc.
I think we have a pretty good group going now. I know John Plowden when he gets back from the job in Mass. will be back on line. As to who qualifies I think its a little hard to say. I agree with Jason you do what you can when its in front of you. I’m using Rusty about a day a week on a couple of jobs, driving skidder and sheer a couple of more and making most of my money putting in a hiking/snowshoe trail down on the coast. Hard to find the time to get my own firewood in. However, I consider myself a full time logger.

[Jim Ostergard]

Rick,
Fridge and heat are gas. Fridge is supposed to work on electric but I’ve never run it that way. I was lucky on jobs away to have 110 from the barn I was using as well as water under pressure. The set up is a bed across the back and a settee in front which makes into a bed. I liked having a table to get up to in the morning and for paperwork and such. Hopes this helps.
Jim

[Jim Ostergard]

I’m not too concerned about numbers although too many folks might lead to too any random ideas getting us off track. I think the primary goal is to get agreement among us (and I like the idea that at this point its practitioners) about the basic structure of the organization. One of the great things that I’ve observed with my association with DAP is that the broad geographic distribution of folks adds tremendously to the available information. We all run a saw and we all use animals but within that; holy smokes, are there some wildly different ideas, experience and such. This part excites me and it is also the legacy we can pass on to younger folks who are interested.
So, I’d suggest we figure rough regions, see if we have good representation on that front and then figure some division of labor. I’m still looking at the newsletter stuff. My old software won’t work anymore and the new stuff (which would allow anything from a print 8 X 11″ to broadsheet newsletter as well as PDF and web newsletter) is pretty pricey. I’m going to snoop around to see if there might not be some community action grant for such.
Hope folks are getting some time in the woods. Standing water most everywhere here in mid-coast Maine.
peace…..Jim

[Jim Ostergard]

I’m certainly in for what its worth. Certainly can share when needed the horse logging perspective from the pretty well cut over mid-coast of Maine. I’ve done both stumpage, day rate and hourly work. Also just cut for the wood. Leaves me in dire financial straits most of the time but that is ok.
I will certainly share energy on the hard copy end and with many newsletters, one-time print shop owner hope I can ease some of that burden for the group.
It might be nice once we get a set of shared principles together I was thinking of making a three panel 8X11 simple brochure and one or two of the panels describe my Peregrinator Services work. Use it as a hand-out to landowners.
Maybe a regional approach would also ease the burden of an association. A co-ordinator for each region and maybe this group could spearhead other activities.
later..Jim

[Jim Ostergard]

I can think of a number of folks who are not participating in this discussion around Maine. This supports a hard copy and also perhaps a personal contact to get them to join a loggers association. So I guess there is a bigger group out that we can perhaps get to support this. A simple flyer with an application panel would do the job and I think we are getting some of the ideas of what we are about and what we could deliver to membership here. One great thing about this forum is we can exchange these ideas pretty rapidly.
Since its raining yet again (Carl, I don’t think I’ve gotten more than 5 or 6 days in the last month or better) I’m going to try to distill some of the idea (and from who wrote them) into a separate document. Maybe just easier to print it all out for reference.
I think the discussion about value added is fundamental to where we might want to go. I can to this as a traditional logger. Skidder, forwarder and all that. Mostly a part Swede saw man. Being given a horse when the skidder blew up changed my life. I’ve kicked around a whole lot (thats a lot of other stories) in my life, always cut a little wood during slack times and the horse action was the first time I ever wished I was fifteen years younger! All this to say that when I finally hooked up with Carl, Jason and all the other loggers (as well as the Donn Hewes and the horse guys and gals of this site really gave me the courage to believe it what I was doing.
Getting local and state outfits to recognizes us and solicit our participation is an idea we can pursue locally as well as nationally. Just saw a local article on all the money that went locally from Project Canopy in Maine last night and will get in touch with them to see how we might fit in. The how to of all this would make great newsletter reading. The ability to pass article information easily would I think actually make enough articles for several broadsheets at this point.
My sister works at some really big printing outfit in Colorado and does all sorts of national stuff. I’ll get on to her about some of the logistics of how we might put this out. Maybe she has some thoughts that would be helpful and save us a lot of time trying to figure it out.
One thing I believe in is the “voice of the newsletter,” and one doesn’t need to be a “writer” to add an article and we already have evidence here of varied voices. Right on.
Good idea about hook ups at various places like the SFJ Auction. We now have a number of other places where regional stuff could happen: DAPDays, the new meeting in Tennessee, Common Ground Low Impact Forestry among others. This would save on the travel which is way too costly for a lot of us.
Carl is correct, we are getting a lot on the table. Maybe someone could start putting some of the main ideas in a document so we could fine tune them on this forum for now.
I’d better shut up for now as this is getting way too wordy. Again, my thanks to all the energy folks are already putting in to this. It helps keep the courage up.

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