[Kevin Cunningham]

Those guys are crazy! that must be some dare to race down a busy road like that, impressive, but so incredibly dangerous.

[Kevin Cunningham]

That is great to know about the tires. Not something I have ever been taught about, but when I think about it, makes sense. You need the grip to run the gearing, not to move the machine. I washed it down yesterday and I agree the wood is still so solid that is dosen’t need to be completely redone yet. There is even some paint still on the inside of the box, wether it is original paint I am not sure. Would you recomend striping the paint and using oil or would paint over paint be a better option?

[Kevin Cunningham]

Tom this is not in direct response to your post, being a hunter, which I think is also a good way to experience food. Fairly recently Joel Salatin came and spoke in our county. There were a lot of points to ponder from his talk, but one stood out and my wife and I and our friends continued to discuss it after the talk, and I think about it often. He spoke of the qualitative difference of food that came from a “servant life.” As opposed to hunting in which we take from a nature that doesn’t give anything directly to us, domesticated farm animals serve a purpose. We keep them for milk, meat, fiber, draft, manure, companionship, beauty, and many other reasons. These animals have allied themselves with humans evolutionarily to such an extant that we are responsible form all the aspects of their lives. They rely on us for feed, shelter, and reproduction and in turn they serve us with unwavering loyalty. Some might argue that animals left to their own devices will go feral and never come back, but I think about wild horses and the many owners of mustangs that swear by them. Now this notion of a “servant life” has religious connotations that I won’t get into here because my own beliefs are too confusing to explain, but what strikes me as important is the concept of farmer as servant. Farmers are stewards of a piece of ground. As opposed to using resources and moving on, good farmers commit to taking care of a single place. I truly believe that a farmer can improve a piece of ground as opposed to simply take from it. So what does this have to do with all this. One of my main beliefs is that we are what we eat, on a very deep level. So food taken from such a loyal servant in my mind can only make us a better servant ourselves. I think it is one of the greatest travesties that we no longer have a deep connection with the food animals we eat. I have not been to that bridge and like Tom I do not know if I could pull the trigger, but when the time comes I will appreciate the gift that my steers offer to me, and I will gladly take them so that I too can be as loyal of a servant as they have been.

[Kevin Cunningham]

So if I was to work with a local dairy farm, the same one that my current steers come from, and have them do some AI on their cows, how many numbers would I want to do to make it worth their time and my investment. The farmer at the dairy would know which cows would be suitable if I spoke to him about my intentions. They have really good practices and seem to understand the cattle, as they are breeding for grass based genetics. Their herd started as pure holstein but has become more cross bred with jersey, ayrshire, and other genetics, seeking the best performers on grass and forage, they are eliminating grain feeding in their operation. I would promise to buy all the calves regardless of sex, so would I want to breed 4, 8, 10 cows? And what would be a reasonalbe offer to make for this kind of deal? It doesn’t ultimately matter, but they do have some red in the herd(red holstein and some ayrshire I am assuming), so that is possible, but temperment and health should be more important. Then I would have to figure out how I would feed so many little ones. I would have to get a nurse cow or two. This type of arrangement could work well and give me a lot of control over the start of the herd, but there are also the most variables. I would have more time into this situation, which has its pros and cons. I would try and at least halter break all of the calves so that handling a small herd could be done easily. I wonder if it would be easier to get either mature or weaned cattle and eliminate some of the initial labor? This is what got me thinking about traveling to get get cattle start with.

[Kevin Cunningham]

I guess that what I need to do is clearly define what it is that I want to do with my herd and my oxen. Right now we are a tractor based vegetable farm, with some grains, poultry and expanding into some other grass based meat production, lamb or beef. I am not going to give up my tractor tomorrow but I do have visions of doing more of my farming with draft power as well as other work around the farm. I am also interested in some logging, but being Redwood country that might mean something different here. I have no oppurtunity to show or pull so that is not a part of my equation, but I still want a good looking and behaving pair. Being a CSA farm and working with students seasonally, we have many visitors to the farm so I need a smart looking and bomb proof team. Right now my theory is unproven, as I am clearly a novice when it comes to cattle, but I would really like to do some actual farming with my oxen. So that means a team large enough to plow efficiently as well as fast enough to move along and get things done. Plus maybe multiple teams. I want a balance of activity and steadiness, in other words I want the perfect cattle.

I know most of the outcome will be based on my training of the teams but some of it can also be breed specific behaviours. I would say that my personality is of a controlling type. Some people might veer toward not enough discipline and I might veer towards too much discipline. I noticed this about myself when I trained my first dog, a great pyrenees. I did not tolerate misbehaviour, and with a strong willed breed like a pyr it was very helpful and I feel we got a great dog out of the training. But some other more sensitive breeds might have become resentful and aloof, because of my authoritarian style. I am noticing this with my steers. I feel like I have to be careful with my off steer because I worry that I might sour him with my training style. Where as my near steer dosen’t take anything too personally. I don’t think I want a sensitive breed, but I also don’t want to get into power struggles with a stong willed animal either.

Since I am the only one in a large area of California, that I know of, training cattle, I also want something to set myself apart from the rest of the dairy and beef industry around here. Of course by simply having a couple of well behaved steers I am already getting some distinction in the neighborhood. But having a visually unique animal could set me apart from the crowd. I have never had any interactions with devons, shorthorns, ayrshires, or herefords. So I do not know how I like their temperments, but I do like the look of red cattle on green grass. Something about it touches me deeply, don’t know if that is just whimsy but just something to note.

I am also willing to throw all my preconcieved notions out the window and just go with something local, after all there are reasons we have what we have around here. We are generally just dairy country so mostly jerseys and holsteins, and then the ubiquitous black beef cattle, angus types. No need for pulling so a HosteinXChianina is out but what about the other ones. What make a good all around farm cross with Holstein?

[Kevin Cunningham]

I have thought about just that very scenario. My first thought was to get some milking shorthorn, of the general dairy type, probably not the old school triple purpose type, and then mix in devon or ayrshire or whatever seems to make sense to get more of a draft oriented animal. I only know of one dairy here in California that milks shorthorns and then only person I know that has gotten a cow from that dairy has had all six teeted calves. So I am concerned about the genetics from that particular cow but that doesn’t mean all of their cows are like that. That is still a possible option but I am not sure I want to go the milking route as I am leaning more towards beef production.

What are some of the more common oxen crosses that you have seen and have been successful? Could I for example cross a devon with a holstein? If I cross a polled herford (more common around here) with a shorthorn (durham) via AI would the resultant offspring have horns? I am not so inclined towards jerseys but is there a good cross with them? Any there any crosses that I am not thinking about that would make good draft animals?

[Kevin Cunningham]

Pretty cool! Seems like it would be easy to build and very maneuverable, I like this idea.

[Kevin Cunningham]

I plant the pumpkin patch with a modified corn planter that our neighbor made. This one hitches three point to the tractor and with all of the corn planting mechanism removed. He welded on a seat and big pipe to form a shoot. I drive and somebody rides and is throwing seed down the shoot. As long as they keep the timing up there are plenty of plants to choose from when we weed and thin. I just mix some sunflower seed in with the pumpkins so that they come up randomly through the patch. I usually space the pumpkin rows 5-6 feet apart and 3 feet in the row. I almost always get plenty of ground cover. You could alternate rows of sunflowers and pumpkins and it wouldn’t matter. If your plant pumpkins closer together you get more smaller pumpkins, further apart and you get bigger ones, which you may not need.

I am taking my seed off today. I select the biggest, and nicest looking flowers for seed at least 25-50 heads. My tallest flower was 10’3″. I try and get the seed off before it rains and there is some on the way this weekend. I dry the seed head in the greenhouse. The rest I leave up for the rest of October for the spooking affect, then I have to pull all of the stalks out of the field. The stalk would never break down like corn for me they are like small trees. I can then harvest the remainder of the seed. I will often put them though the combine stationary and my little All Crop does a a great job threshing them.

[Kevin Cunningham]

I plant the pumpkin patch with a modified corn planter that our neighbor made. This one hitches three point to the tractor and with all of the corn planting mechanism removed. He welded on a seat and big pipe to form a shoot. I drive and somebody rides and is throwing seed down the shoot. As long as they keep the timing up there are plenty of plants to choose from when we weed and thin. I just mix some sunflower seed in with the pumpkins so that they come up randomly through the patch. I usually space the pumpkin rows 5-6 feet apart and 3 feet in the row. I almost always get plenty of ground cover. You could alternate rows of sunflowers and pumpkins and it wouldn’t matter. If your plant pumpkins closer together you get more smaller pumpkins, further apart and you get bigger ones, which you may not need.

I am taking my seed off today. I select the biggest, and nicest looking flowers for seed at least 25-50 heads. My tallest flower was 10’3″. I try and get the seed off before it rains and there is some on the way this weekend. I dry the seed head in the greenhouse. The rest I leave up for the rest of October for the spooking affect, then I have to pull all of the stalks out of the field. The stalk would never break down like corn for me they are like small trees. I can then harvest the remainder of the seed. I will often put them though the combine stationary and my little All Crop does a a great job threshing them.

[Kevin Cunningham]

Wow, that has been a very difficult decision by the college and it seems to me, an outsider, that the best possible decision was made. I have never been in that particular situation, the useful end of an ox’s life, so I can’t speak to how I would react but in my mind it is more honorable to have the animal continue to nourish and enrich the people whose lives he touched rather than suffer and then rot. I dislike the opinion that food is a waste. If anything good food is the most honorable and righteous thing. Food can actually be more of a sacrament than we let it. I am alarmed at the disconnection most people and especially young students have from their food. I am at liberty to take more of an aggressive stance and say that vegans and vegetarians need to wake up. My personal philosophy is that our salvation as people, is not though connection with plants, although important, or development of technology, also important, but rather our ultimate path to sustainability lies on the path of deep connection and relationship with animals. This does not mean shipping them off to a “nursing home” when they get old, so that out of sight and out mind prevails. We need remembrance and to truly take the essence of these great teachers into our being. I’ll stop here so to stop ranting.

[Kevin Cunningham]

This is the advice that I need and that is why I bring this up here. I have the time to figure this out and right now the concept is like a glittering little gem in the distance. I love looking at the pictures of the devons, shorthorns, and herefords for that matter. I have to accept the fact that I am still such a novice when it comes to cattle. Those subtleties that you speak of Droverone are the things that I need to start to look at and experience. I am at the very beginning stages of this development and I have not seen enough to make real decisions about what will make the best choice. I like the look of devons which is one thing. I have read plenty of times that they are super intelligent and frequently out smart their handlers, but I have never actually encountered them. It would be a shame if I commit to spending a lot of time and money on breeding animals that on some level I dislike. Honestly that is why I am getting out of the goat business. I can appreciate goats for all their good qualities but mostly they just irritate me, my heart is just not in it. But that is why I am even contemplating raising cattle, because when I go out and feed the steers, brush them, and yoke them up all the stress melts away and it is the highlight of my day. I don’t get the same feeling from feeding the chickens, or moving the sheep, or milking the goats, or even training my dog. I have to be honest and say that cattle in general touch me deeply. Now that is why I want to spend the time to figure out which breed will make my heart sing. I don’t own a huge ranch but enough ground to raise a small amount and that seems like a perfect fit to make a deep connection with the animals and get very well trained teams of oxen, and cows for that matter. My short experience with the main breeds around here have taught me that my actual experience can run contrary to what my thoughts were. Everybody around here loves Jerseys, they are small, and have doe eyes, high butterfat and are not “monster milk machines” like the Holsteins. But like my vet says they have a tendency to give up and die. I am not terribly fond of the personalities of the jerseys I have met. My team is half, and my off steer seems to have more jersey in him because he does have the tendency to give up, he always has. Holsteins on the other hand seem to be malaligned as mere producers, big and dumb, but I seem to like the holsteins better. This is not what I would have expected. So maybe I should raise holsteins but I certainly don’t need all that milk!

[Kevin Cunningham]

I plant giant sunflowers in my pumpkin patch each year. I like this combo because the squash will usually cover the ground more than just the sunflowers do. You might consider that for next year, less sunflowers and more squash. Cattle and goats also love pumpkins and the seeds have worming effect. I turns out more like a “three sisters” (corn, squash, beans) planting. I tend to plant a smattering of sunflowers in amongst the pumpkins but a you could plant a more balanced ratio for the desired results. I do like growing sunflowers, the flowers are hard not to like.

[Kevin Cunningham]

There is a market for family cows in our area and I think devons would be well received around here, as well as other parts of the west coast as well(CA and OR). The dreamer in me really wants devons but I am intimidated by how far I would have to travel in order to get good stock. Keep in mind that I live 16 miles from the most westerly point of the states, in other words about as far away from PA and VT as you can get. I also feel like if I am going to travel long distances I should get the right numbers and have a really detailed plan because it is going to cost me more than I think it will. I might want to get some heifer and some bull calves to pick another pair and then have a head start on making more oxen. That is if I want more than one team of oxen! I do but I have to think about what is realistic. Or maybe I should get older proven animals? Honestly it feels crazy that I am even considering this, but I know I am not getting into this for at least another season. So I have some time to figure things out and get my priorities straight.

[Kevin Cunningham]

Droverone what did you mean? Have you had to wait for enough bull calves to choose from? I am worried about the idea of small numbers. I wonder if it is realistic to think that I can keep some cows and raise enough steers to train some and beef the rest, and not grow the herd beyond my resources. It sounds so simple but I know that it is more complex than that. I remember a while back I was having trouble with my off steer causing the team to bolt. I still have troubles with him. I have not not had the resources to scrap the two as a team and restart another pair, but I can tell that it would be nice to have a larger pool of bulls to choose from so that I can get the best pair. I started four and picked the best two but maybe I would have gotten better results if I had twice the numbers to choose from. What have you done with all those heifers? Ideally the herd would reach an equilibrium of growth so that it doesn’t out grow the resources to feed it.

[Kevin Cunningham]

This is true. Earlier this year when we were contemplating expanding our milk goat herd, we had three sets of triplets for a total of 9 boys out of the 11 kids this year. I am thankful because we have decided not to pursue milking goats full time for other reasons, but I agree that what seems like a 50/50 chance is not actually good odds. I am not planning on breaking to many teams for oxen unless it gets out of control, but this means that having animals that retain more value as replacement heifers could be a good thing. Is this an afgument for raising registered animals of some kind. So that the female off spring ,that are not used as replacement, can add to the value of the herd.

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