[mstacy]

Sabine,

I’m far too green to even pretend to have the answers. But given the age that you these two I’d try to focus on building a relationship with each one of them individually. A brush was my greatest ally in winning over Earl and Stanley. They hated it at first, but quickly grew to love having their necks scratched.

They a calm around me but tend to get nervous around other people still. There is always a new challenge to focus on.

Moderated doses of isolation might work in your favor. You become alot more interesting if they don’t have any other social outlets.

Regards,

Matt
@sanhestar 10854 wrote:

Matt,

I bought the two April this year but spent some weeks with basic training with them while they still were at their breeders farm.

Both were born summer 2008 and mother-raised – first disadvantage
Emma is very smart, has an extraordinary memory and I made a few beginners mistakes with her – next disadvantage
She has no need for human companionship although she’s curious and generally interested in what I do, as long as I don’t expect her to do anything FOR me.

Since I brought her to our place I’m working on the basics like being touched, put a halter on and lead her. So far we have come to being touched while I offer her her favourite treat – salt. She’s not shy or afraid, just unwilling to work with me and rewareds the slightest mistake or mis-step with distrust (f.e. my hubby tripped two weeks ago, when he filled the water basin. She spooked and since then he’s “monster man” and she refuses to go near him).

She will follow her herdmate, the steer Roy and f.e. loads without problems into a trailer as long as he goes in first. But I don’t think that she will ever become a reliable worker.

[mstacy]

Sanhestar,

How long have you had your Rotes? What sorts of training and work are you doing with them? I look forward to hearing about your experiences with them.

Regards,

Matt Stacy
W. Topsham, VT

@sanhestar 10843 wrote:

Countryboy,

I made the decision to start with devons – resp. Rotes Höhenvieh as they are called in Germany (they share the same ancestry than devons) – and I can second what mother katherine writes: smart, VERY smart and VERY!! headstrong.

I’ve trained Iceland horses (also very smart), Scottish Highland Ponies, goats and dogs but this heifer is getting the best of me every day. The steer is more inclined to work with me, if he wouldn’t I would be out of the working cattle business by now.

[mstacy]

I can see from all the activity that DAP is alive and well. I’m glad to see it.

Geoff,

I neglected to tell you that all four of my boves are American Milking Devons. That’s a pretty limited dataset to generalize from and I’m extremely green at this whole teamster thing. That said, I’m a firm believer that socialization is the main difference between these two pairs. But I could be dead wrong. And genetics or even individual temperment could certainly be at play here.

Fortunately I did not read Drew Conroy’s “tractability” ratings until after I was already committed.

Josh,

You have a very astute memory. Luke, Magnolia, Stanley, and Earl (bull, heifer, nigh steer, off steer respectively) are all indeed AMD’s. Stop by if you’re ever in the neighborhood. Pittsford is not that far. Going to NEAPFD?

Mother Katherine,

I agree whole heartedly that Devons are headstrong and challenging to say the least. But I don’t have any regrets. That Devon intelligence and spirit is a double edged sword but I suppose a lack thereof would be as well. Earl quickly taught me that 3 strands of barbed wire is NOT a fence. We later progressed to 5 strands and most recently a portable electric setup that I absolutely love (but that’s another story for another day).

From what I have read and from my own limited experience this breed posseses some fantastic virtues. They are easy keepers, walk fast for a cow, and have a very agreable temperment. They don’t kick (though I certainly wouldn’t attribute that to a breed characteristic) while I’m working behind them and they absolutely love to be brushed.

Anyone shopping for their first team would do well to heed or at the very least ponder Mother Katherine’s advice long and hard. Don’t neccessarily rule out Devons but be aware of the magnitude of effort and commitment required to train them. Any draft animal deserves all the effort and commitment you can give them. Perhaps Devons just demand a bit more.

Earl and Stanley have been a huge project (they probably say the same about me on the “darn human drover” bulletin board). The challenges have been … well CHALLENGING, but extremely rewarding. Just this week they started dragging what I consider to be good sized boulders (I need help to roll them onto the sled). We’re still working up to the McD 9 mower. They can pull it but really can’t cut yet. We’ll get there.

Matt Stacy
W. Topsham, VT

[mstacy]

I paid $450 each for a pair of 12 week old devon bull calves last fall. They came from a grass-fed beef operation … which in my limited experience can translate to A HAND FULL. It took weeks and weeks to get them settled down and months to get them yoked and working.

By comparison the pail fed heifer and bull calf that I got from a dairy were a dream. By the second day they were responding well to voice and a whispy little stick. Luckily I got these two first. They really built my confidence. It took very little time to get them yoked and pulling. I bought them in early October (at about 12 weeks). In December they slogged through belly deep snow to pull our Christmas tree out of the woods. Most importantly they were easy enough and gentle enough to teach me as we learned together.

It would have been very discouraging to start with the other two. They’re doing very well now but it has taken a lot of effort and persistence.

[mstacy]

I had two of my devons castrated in March, at approximately 9 months old. Call me a coward if you will but I heeded the voice of reason (my lovely spouse) and had the vet come over. She used the “henderson” method which leaves absolutely no doubt as to the outcome. She completely anethsetized my boys. Neither animal was even the least bit traumatized by the incident. It was suprisingly inexpensive and I have no regrets.

At 9 months Earl and Stanley were starting to get a little randy. I wouldn’t have wanted to delay the procedure any longer. More experienced teamsters may feel differntly.

-Matt

[mstacy]

Carl,

I was on the board of the White River Partnership … way back when. When my aunt and uncle gave me a book of raffle tickets for my birthday this year I was thrilled to see that you were providing the timber for this.

My hat is off to you and the rest of the Partnership. Keep up the great work on both fronts (WRP and DAP). Give my best to Dan McKinley and Geo if they’re still in it.

Matt Stacy

[mstacy]

Jason,

From the article, it was not clear to me what benefits “certification” provides to the logger and/or sawyer. You take a class. Get certified. Then what?

Does the Wisconsin program provide some commercial advantage to certified individuals? I like the concept, but the details were not clear (to me at least) in the article.

Regards,

Matt Stacy
West Topsham, VT

[mstacy]

Geoff,

Do you have contact information for Norm MacNair? Or any other sources of parts for McCormick mowers?

-Matt

[mstacy]

Hi Ixy,

Take my comments with a very large grain of salt, as my draft animal experience is largely limited to the four Devons I got last fall.

I find the animals that are NOT in yoke to be more challenging. Luke (yearling bull) gets particularly curious when Earl and Stanley are pulling a load. At times he will even try to spar with them.

I would not shy away from the challenge, but ease into it. Drive Angus through the field a few times to see how he AND the herd respond. And definitely keep a halter on him, at least the first few times. Then try dragging one of those “random tyres”. If everthing works out then its time to think about hauling some wood. There’s a lot more potential for injury to yourself or one of the animals while Angus is hitched to a load. Instead setup situations with minimal consequences. Build up to it.

Cheers,

Matt

[mstacy]

Hi Bivol,

Your statement about the relative economics of horses and oxen for logging strikes me as rather interesting. Actually I have been thinking about this topic quite a lot lately.

@bivol 9530 wrote:

hi!

logging-oxen can be used to pull out logs. they can’t economically compete for the volume of pulled wood with mules and horses, but can be useful to have near for private woodlot management.

Couldn’t the same “can’t economically compete” argument be applied to all forms of draft power? In this era of cheap fossil fuel (even when oil was over $150 per barrel) it seems like a skidder or tractor can pull vastly more wood than even a speedy, well conditioned team of horses. In most cases I suspect the difference more than makes up for fuel, maintenance, and financing.

There are many reasons to work with draft animals. The most important is because you want to. Sustainability, environmental impact, and quality of the work are also potential advantages of draft.

Regards,

-Matt

[mstacy]

Jason,

Thanks for the information. I’ll give it a try. I’d much rather tether my Devons in the ivy patch for an afternoon that get in there myself.

-Matt

[mstacy]

Bjahnes that is a very astute observation about animals associating the halter (or other tack) with loss of freedom. I never really thought about that but know my four Devons sometimes get a little goofy when I’m putting halters on or taking them off. I like your idea of applying tack at random times so that it is associated with pleasant experiences too. Or more accurately to teach the animal that they can’t reliably associate the halter with anything pleasant or otherwise.

I’ll see how it works with my beasties.

Matt

@bjahnes 8959 wrote:

I had a similar problem, with my steer being afraid when I approached him with a halter. He began associating being haltered with losing his freedom, and having to work, because this was usually the only occasion that I haltered him. I found that if I haltered him at random times and fed him, and/or gave him a good and long scratch under the chin, the halter became less threatening because the routine of being haltered became less associated with negative experiences. Also, i’ve noticed that it is good to distract him with food, water, or a chin-scratch when unhaltering, so that he doesn’t associate being unhaltered with immediate freedom.

[mstacy]

Rod,

I am wrestling with the same issue. I have a young pair of Devons that have grown accustomed to being driven from the front. To some extent that was a result of skidding firewood on packed trails that were not packed wide enough for me to walk beside them through the winter.

Now that the snow is mostly melted I am starting to work on driving from the side again. I am going back to halter training the nigh steer alone to get him used to it again.

Regards,

Matt

[mstacy]

Jason,

I downloaded the plans from your site a few months back. Thanks for the advice on wheels too.

Matt

[mstacy]

Jen,

I appreciate the tip. I was able to locate Tamworth piglets at Applesnout Farm in Shoreham Vermont. I put a deposit down on three. They’ll wean next month.

Matt

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