[near horse]

Hi Dave,

If you’re planning on buying and using a McD mower in the future, it never hurts to have a parts machine around. At $65 you almost can’t miss and Kuna’s pretty close to Nampa – right? Good luck.

[near horse]

First – I apologize if throwing the “Tragedy of the Commons” into the discussion put us into a new “orbit” but I think that it promotes some serious reflection on evaluating “what benefits me” vs “what benefits we” (which in the long run may also benefit me) or “short term vs long term gains” or sustainability ….

As many have said here, sustainability is a complex topic and may be a utopian goal but one worth working towards.

I’ll leave it at that and sorry about the confusion.

[near horse]

This may be an overused parable that has been used to decribe a number of unsustainable practices but it seems applicable to the current discussion so I’ll throw it out there. It’s called “The Tragedy of the Commons” and was published in the journal Science in 1968 – here is an exerpt (if you want the whole article, PM me and I’ll send it).

The tragedy of the commons develops in this way. Picture a pasture open to all. It is to be expected that each herdsman will try to keep as many cattle as possible on the commons. Such an arrangement may work reasonably satisfactorily for centuries because tribal wars, poaching, and disease keep the numbers of both man and beast well below the carrying capacity of the land. Finally, however, comes the day of reckoning, that is, the day when the long-desired goal of social stability becomes a reality. At this point, the inherent logic of the commons remorselessly generates tragedy.

As a rational being, each herdsman seeks to maximize his gain. Explicitly or implicitly, more or less consciously, he asks, “What is the utility to me of adding one more animal to my herd?” This utility has one negative and one positive component.
1. The positive component is a function of the increment of one animal. Since the herdsman receives all the proceeds from the sale of the additional animal, the positive utility is nearly + 1.
1. The negative component is a function of the additional overgrazing created by one more animal. Since, however, the effects of overgrazing are shared by all the herdsmen, the negative utility for any particular decision making herdsman is only a fraction of – 1.
Adding together the component partial utilities, the rational herdsman concludes that the only sensible course for him to pursue is to add another animal to his herd. And another…. But this is the conclusion reached by each and every rational herdsman sharing a commons. Therein is the tragedy. Each man is locked into a system that compels him to increase his herd without limit — in a world that is limited. Ruin is the destination toward which all men rush, each pursuing his own best interest in a society that believes in the freedom of the commons. Freedom in a commons brings ruin to all.

Some would say that this is a platitude. Would that it were! In a sense, it was learned thousands of years ago, but natural selection favors the forces of psychological denial.[8] The individual benefits as an individual from his ability to deny the truth even though society as a whole, of which he is a part, suffers. Education can counteract the natural tendency to do the wrong thing, but the inexorable succession of generations requires that the basis for this knowledge be constantly refreshed.

I think Carl is saying that the problem now (and in this parable) is demonstrated in this line “As a rational being, each herdsman seeks to maximize his gain.” (the assumption being short term or immediate gain rather than long term or future gain). If that is the mindset of any farmer or logger, then there is no argument to made for sustainability.

[near horse]

Just to play “devil’s advocate” – the best thing an individual human could do for the planet is to not exist because by your very existence you are using resources,creating wastes etc and human numbers are way “out of balance” with the rest of the ecosystem. So, if you’re not into becoming voluntary compost for the greater good then all you can do is try to live as sustainably as possible (as I think Carl and Tim are saying – right?). But you do need to do things/use resources to live – sustainably or not.

As beings, we are constrained, although not necessarily limited, by the socioeconomic environment in which we are born and live. You need to be able to make a living – whether it’s cash, barter or subsistence and if the “rules of the game” keep you from making a living, then you end up having to adapt your practices. If nobody will “play ball” (use your product/service), then it’s hard to have a “game” (sustain your livelihood).

Okay – I’ve gotten into a terrible ramble – feel free to disregard:eek:

[near horse]

Beta lines are the ticket. They have the heft and feel of leather – not so slippery when wet and are strong. No complaints about these lines.

[near horse]

Hi Bumpus,

I understand your point regarding the contract detail(s) as it seems the value to the sustainable logging contractor is in the long term management and harvest of timber on the property. So what type of commitment does the landowner make to the contractor? 10 years of right to first refusal? More? Is there anything that would void the contract – like change of ownership? I would also be interested to hear how others work out the details because this is a new way (to me) of thinking about land/timber management.

Jason – could you come up with a theoretical scenario and walk us through the basic contract agreement? That might clear things up.

[near horse]

Here’s one shot at defining sustainability – apply it toward farming, forestry or whatever –

For any single farm to truly be sustainable, it must produce adequate yields of high quality and be resource conserving, environmentally sound, economically profitable, and socially just. In a sense, it’s a goal and a utopian concept.

So, if an organic or conventional farm is not economically profitable, it’s not sustainable. If it’s either polluting the groundwater or eroding the soil, it’s not sustainable …. If you high grade timber, there’s nothing but low quality left to reproduce = short term profit but long term unsustainable.

Bumpus, I have to add that yourquestions/comments are the most unclear and confusing things I’ve read on here.

What does this mean:

I have parteners in the business that would like to know as you all said … ( ask the questions
and you would answers ) … to the question we would ask which are simple .

What does your contract mean to us ?

This is real business … not pleasure, which me and my partners in land contracts, and others would like to know.

Tell us what you mean ! ! !

[near horse]

Welcome back brother! I/we were beginning to worry about you but it sounds like you’ve had a good and productive season. Congrats on the new donkeys.

I assume moonbathing w/o moonblock leaves you with a moonburn in which your skin gets paler:rolleyes:

Good to have you back.

A suggestion for your “Pirate – Farmer” gig down in McCall – you need a parrot or have one of the donks named “Polly” sit on your shoulder – AAARGH!

[near horse]

Hey BigLug,

I have a question – What would the tail docking have to do with how well these things work?

[near horse]

Hi James,

The numbers you have are pretty impressive and would suggest that it is certainly doable. That said, agricultural markets, as you probably know, can be fickle and swing wildly – EX – over the last 2-5 yrs, the dairy market, grain prices and even hay. So, if you choose to make this move, try to factor in some “worst case scenarios” to give yourself an idea of how much market change you could handle. I’ve never used them but extension offices or some other agency (farm credit services) do offer information about “risk management” worth checking into. I’m not trying to push you either way but you need to go into these things with “eyes wide open”.

I know of guys that went into grain farming, made a couple of miscalculations and an untimely war – they were done in one year – and now are still paying on the debt.

Best of luck to you and I hope you can make it work.

Geoff

Also – throw your question out to the guys over at haytalk http://www.haytalk.com

[near horse]

We need more information (at least I do).

What’s your alfalfa market like? Price solid year ’round?
How about irrigation cost? I assume you get water rights w/ the
property or is that leased?
Expected average yield? How much yield change over 10 cuttings?
In fact, how well can an alfalfa stand tolerate 10 cuttings per year before it needs to be reestablished?

So do you really only need to net $1600/cutting to clear $80,000?
My calculation after expenses $1600 x 10 cuttings = 16,000
16000 x 5 years = 80,000.

1600 per cutting = $160/ac (again, after expenses).

Sorry I was of little help but it was fun to do the numbers. I my opinion the concern(s) are related to initial establishment cost and subsequent yields.

Good luck.

[near horse]

Hey Countryboy,

As with most things, “It depends.” Rarer and unusual breeds = more money. Are you looking for a heifer or an older cow? That can influence the price as well. If you’re looking for something to produce some milk for your table and throw you some calves – maybe for oxen – but are willing to stick with the common breeds, you could be looking at about $1000 or more. There are some old cull cows (gummers) that can be had cheap just need more attentive feeding program and they can still give you a calf.

For some folks that are really into “the family cow” and keep tabs on what’s showing up for sale around the nation try this site http://www.familycow.proboards.com

Good luck.

Geoff

[near horse]

This thread prompted me to think about “other” draft animals again which, in turn, led to my recollection of a photo (pre-photoshop) of a moose pulling a small sleigh. Remember – don’t try this at home with your local moose! But it does go to show that animals are very flexible in their adapability. BTW- are there any reindeer herders on this list?

[near horse]

Hi Loring,

I don’t see where you are from – if you’re anywhere near Michigan, Tiller’s International does a class on making your own yoke(s) as well as an ox driving/training course – Howie would know much more about what they offer because, if I recall, he teaches the ox driving stuff (Is that right Howie?). And I’ve heard from many that he’s one of the best.

OOPS – I didn’t notice Vicki’s post re:Tillers

[near horse]

The USDA can get your info from various sources – how about through the brand inspection service, for one – a requirement if you are selling or transporting animals across state lines. BTW – These things are a joke.

[Author]

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