[near horse]

How about these two:

1) the sound of water. Running over the spillway of the pond or just creeks thawing and high w/ the beginning snowmelt. Or the splash of geese “landing” on still water.

2) Did I mention CANADA GEESE! – do any of you see geese coming through on their migration route? That is a true sign of spring for us and can be quite a raucous event when a flock circles and then lands on the pond. Sometimes they’ll land on still frozen ponds and stand there w/ a puzzled look (my interpretation). There’s a lot of honking when the fights erupt over who’s going to nest on this pond. Just an aside – in Boise ID, Boise State University has blue field turf in their outdoor sports stadium (Smurf Turf) and geese have been known to land on it (looks like a nice pond from the air).

[near horse]

Robert – I wouldn’t split it in the woods unless you’re going to load it on the truck and deliver it on the way home.

Maybe I’m missing something but doesn’t 1/3 of a cord of wood weigh the same amount whether it’s split or still in log form? Assuming the same moisture. If your animals are capable of pulling that weight, isn’t it “easier” to drag it as one entity (a log) rather than a stack of 16″ firewood?

Without getting too complicated in my description, in Robert’s case wouldn’t a simple go-devil or bogan(I think that’s a term) work well? Cut to length that your donkeys can handle, load front end on apparatus to aid in skidding, chain up and away. In Gregg Caudell’s video he has a simple one of these made out of 2″ pipe – probably 2’W x 3’L .

Anyway, if I seem obtuse and confused by the discussion, I apologize. It’s been a long day. Good night:)

[near horse]

Hi Aaron,

On the video side of things:

I just want to mention that there was a video series put out by Maine Public TV and Univ. Maine Orono called “Great American Woodlots”. It came out in the mid 80’s but was pretty neat in that it showed management of woodlots in different areas with differing objectives.

I see that Univ Maine library and UMass Amherst hav them on hand. I’m just trying to find some copies out here in the west.

It worked to peak my interest way back in the 80s.

[near horse]

Wow – dragging your own firewood! And rolling rounds. Robert -You’re one tough hombre. I’m still not clear on whether you’re dropping green cull trees or dead standing ones. Even dead ones have quite a bit of moisture left in them (especially at the base) if they’ve only been dead a year or less.

Here in the northeast, firewood is a last resort for seasoned loggers. The reasons are amply explained by Jason and Carl.

In Idaho it might make more sense.

Rick – most loggers here can make way more money logging than cutting firewood, when there’s work to do. About 10+ years ago I know sawyers that were bringing in $60,000 for 9-10 mo work. They are on unemployment during the spring mud season and in the summer fire season they go on “hoot owl” which means they have to be out of the woods by 11AM. So guys start leaving for the jobsite at 2-3 AM. Some drive for 2 hours to get to the site while others are far out enough to just stay in camp all week. This isn’t your regular 9-5 type of job for sure.

If I could cut, split, skid and sell 4 or 5 cords a week

This might be splitting hairs but Rick, are you splitting wood out in the forest? Before you haul it to your trailer/truck? Just asking.

The other issue I’ve run into, again on public land, is finding a good place to buck the tree into rounds to haul. Other than on the forest service road, everything is pretty steep with pretty heavy understory – not real safe for bucking.

Whew – I’m feelin that bursitis already (or maybe its carpal tunnel from typing).

[near horse]

I have to pass a log trucking outfit whenever I head in to town and today noticed their lot was full (no trucks out). He runs about 40 trucks so the lot was really full. Also, this guy opened his own Exxon mini-mart – gets a better deal on fuel so I hear.

[near horse]

My horses came from Michigan on a 2 1/2 day 2000 mile trip in a stock trailer and the previous owner also worried about the water issue. He carried 2 50 gallon plastic barrels of water from home but the horses never seemed to mind one way or the other. When they got here they drank our water w/ no hesitation. The did seem to want to rest for a day or so after arrival. In other words, they laid down and snoozed in the paddock. I assume 2 1/2 days in a trailer makes ones legs tired. It surely makes my butt tired.

Unless things have changed, I’m not so much a believer in the probiotic stuff. Most of the older stuff (maybe Equilife or something) never makes it past the stomach intact and therefore doesn’t really do anything to boost or alter the microflora in the gut. Essentially, they ended up being a “protein supplement” with the protein coming from the added microbes. But I have to admit I haven’t kept up and maybe things are different now.

[near horse]

Well, I thought I submitted to this thread a few minutes ago but writngs must have gone into the vapor:(

BUT – Robert covered a lot of what I was going to mention. The difference in both land ownership and firewood species here in the west. I didn’t know

the typical 2-ton truck w/ winch, 4-wheeler ‘chain her up & hit the gas’

Robert – how do you get your wood to the truck to haul it? We used to skid w/ our old 4wd pickup and a cable choker and cut into rounds on the forest service road – never left anything behind. Limbed where it fell. One of my neighbors was afraid of tearing up his ground by moving the log at all so he cut rounds and carried them to his pickup (he ended up having to roll them because they were 2′ dbh red fir – green:eek:)

I think a logging arch for donkeys would have to be scaled way down? Perhaps some sort of long, narrow cart or wagon for stove-lengths or 4-footers? Maybe I’m wasting time on this idea?

Don’t under sell what a donkey is capable of. If they were that incapable,much of the 3rd world would have dumped them a long time ago. Those little buggers haul some serious loads in Africa (sometimes it’s probably too much) but a team on an arch should be able to handle some logs. What diameters of tmber are you looking at?

the timber companies {that own tracts larger than some Eastern states} have shown some willingness to give exclusive permission to those that can show that they can do it without damaging the valuable timber

Who did you talk to about this? I’d like to know more.

[near horse]

Not as common but have you seen or heard a yellow-headed blackbird? That’s quite a song :p The bird book describes it thusly “song extremely harsh, unmusical; a few hard, clacking notes followed by a wavering raucous wail like a chainsaw ….” Oh spring is in the air:) Maybe that’s why there are more redwings than yellow heads.

[near horse]

Mud.:(

But Erika – red winged blackbirds? They are the scourge of any bird feeders. We know winter is on the way out when you hear the great horned owls calling during the breeding season (usually late Feb). Also, Canada geese start nesting and eventually march their broods from one pond to the next. Wow – now I’m feeling ready for spring.

The local paper always reports the sighting of the first Buttercup but we are happy when we see the snowdrops emerge.

I had friends from interior of Alaska that got excited about seeing lettuce (green) and not in the garden but just on their dinner plate:eek:

[near horse]

Joel, you are right. The horses get bigger, weights heavier and overall feats more stupendous with each “tell of the tale”. It’s a lot of fun. Also, for less experienced folks, these plowing days are super places to meet the old timers and make some conections. Learn. Learn. Learn.

The Colfax threshing bee never ceases to amaze me. It’s freakin’ 90+ degrees and drier than a popcorn fart and a couple of 80 yr old fellas are up on the threshing table forking wheat into the threshing unit like madmen. Funny thing is when they get to the event, many of the old timers look so “stoved up” that they are barely able to amble over to the field but once things get to going they come to life. Threshing – the fountain of youth?

I’ll see if I can get over and get some pics this year.

[near horse]

The horse could have worked his entire life in the woods and only worked in a team. He may not know how to work by himself

How common a problem is this? My young team also doesn’t fair so well when driven single. They don’t run off but act as if they don’t know their cues as well (my impression). In fact, when ground driving they do (or try to) whirl around as Doug described. They don’t run off but it’s evident they aren’t as comfortable by themselves. It willbe easier to work on this when I can get off the county road and into the field. “Dancing” in the roadway, no matter how much minor travel it gets, is still too dangerous.

[near horse]

According to my forester friends there is a time and place for a clear cut. I’m as much in favor of sustainable growth as you are, but calling all conventional logging “filthy” is no more accurate than saying all horse logging is pollution free and uses best practices throughout the industry

Did your forester friends tell you the time and place for the clearcut? Using best management practices and assuming that there has been no devastating natural event in the stand (like fire or insect damage), the clear cuts are usually so small as to be more costly to the operation – in our area they refer to them as “postage stamp” clearcuts that are on the order of 1 – 2 acres. That’s all.

Yup, and I’m as much in favor of reducing, reusing and recycling as you are. Problem is that alot of the separated trash that’s supposed to be recycled ends up in land fills anyway. It’s not efficient at all and until that’s addressed it nothing more than a feel good money grab

There’s pretty solid data that most if not all of the major cash flow in recycling centers comes from the metal(s) – aluminum cans (and copper) are subsidizing the rest of the operation so calling paper recycling a money grab is unwarranted.

To keep the profit margin everyone tries to cut costs and the easiest place to do that is at the raw material end. There’s no way you can say with lower costs your profit margin would fall.

Sure thing. Just give away timber on public lands. It’s just the taxpayers we’re screwing. The Forest Circus did that for a long time. It seems that there are 3 options to increase profits: 1) Decrease production costs (you can hire less people – not good for the overall economy or local community) or get timber cheap, as you suggest; 2) Add value or high end your product (EX – saw logs or firewood vs pulp); 3) Increase the amount harvested per unit of time. This is a short term solution as it eventually floods the market and drives the price down which means you have to cut more and faster. #3 has been the prevailing model not just for logging but most of agriculture and natural resource industries. Increase production by covering more land faster using incredibly expensive equipment with fewer employees. What part of that sounds like it builds a sustainable community? Or a sustainable anything? These guys are running $600,000 feller-bunchers to harvest sawlogs at $120/MBF. Not sustainable. Laughable if people weren’t getting laid off.

regulations and taxes that make no sense

Like the DOT? For someone who is so opposed to government regulation, you sure made your living off of them if you worked for the DOT. I think there are certain things that they need to do but there are plenty that the DOT is just the type of agency you’re railing about every time you post.

incredible amount of your money is wasted paying for regulations and taxes that make no sense.

That’s funny. I feel like my tax dollars were wasted NOT regulating enough. How in the heck do you think we got into the current financial mess? Over regulation? Ask Bernie Madoff if over regulation helped him to screw people over for billions.

I might add check into what capitalism, socialism and communism are really about before you start throwing around the terms. For people that are concerned about their neighbors and communities rather then just themselves, socialism is preferable to capitalism. Who fought to get rights for workers (regular lunchbox toting, coffee drinking Joes)? Not capitalists. The United Workers Party – ask anyone who lived through the union battles in the 20’s and 30’s. And look at the nice little mess the coal industry manged down there in W. Virginia now.

We’re still being taxed for the Spanish American War Jason!

Wow. That is some interesting history there. Where in the world did you come up with that?

[near horse]

Thanks for all the rapid responses. The challenge now is finding something I can afford that meets the size needs and isn’t an accident waiting to happen. Those of you that use bumper pulls – do you ever wish you had a gooseneck? For stability in tracking or whatever.

Also, there certainly is a fine medium between solidly built and ending up with a “lead sled” (pronounce as in head). We pulled one of those when I worked in Animal science. It was brutal even when empty.

Thanks again for your comments.

[near horse]

Hi,

I just got off the phone w/ a local friend who logs commercially in our neck of the woods and does what’s called “cut to length” harvesting – logs are cut to size before they are loaded on the trucks. It had some promise a few years back but the trucking guys wanted to go another route – tandem bunks that substantially increased the weight per load so it has fallen by the wayside. He is still able to get some contracts, primarily from state lands, that want the cut to length stuff. If I understood right, it was easier on the ground than skidders – but not as nice as horses:D. He won’t be back in the woods until June. It is pretty much a given that a lot of operations are going to go belly up in the next few months.

Anyway, he sort of branched out into stream reclamation stuff – said it was a good use for his equipment. Also, non-pulp timber is bringing about $120/MBF:eek:. There’s another guy that uses his self-loader equipment to haul and place boulders for people’s landscape projects. Wow. I guess you gotta pay for that equipment somehow.

AND – just to add insult to injury. Over half of the “property tax” in our region that goes to fund the school district, fire dept etc comes from timber ground that has dropped significantly in value. It hits from all sides.

[near horse]

Neil,

Here’s another site w/ less govt gibberish RE: NAIS stuff. http://nonais.org/

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