[near horse]

Good comments from all of you.

Erika – right on the mark about canola vs rape. Plus you threw in the word “syncopated” – one has to like that! 🙂 Rape oil is used primarily as a high quality lubricant (and now perhaps for biodiesel) while canola is produced for human consumption (of the oil).

Carl – I know where you’re coming from w/ regard to reducing reliance on outside technology but we all have to decide what concessions to make to get along in this age. We are quite a long distance from towns of any substance (30+miles) and my wife commutes to work as well. I was trying to think of how to reduce our reliance on petroleum (or whatever the next expensive E source will be).

One practical limitation seems to be, and I think that Brett is getting at this, the speed the generator/alternator needs to turn in order to recharge a battery. I’ve seen some “power plants” designed for rural areas in developing nations but they run on a small diesel motor. Neat idea though – they run a seed crushing mill, water pump, a few electric lights Here’s the link [HTML][http://www.ptfm.net/old/mfpwhat.htm/HTML].

So – how can we replace a diesel motor with draft horses? (Now isn’t that a reversal of the tractor era thinking:D)

There are also guys that have stripped small cars of engine/transmission etc and just run a battery and electric motor. Those things can generate serious speed – like 6 sec quarter mile. Also, I heard a guy on the radio that just has some HS kids working on designing an electric car and they’ve already made a couple of prototypes that function well and don’t cost $$$$$. He said he didn’t know why GM and others were going to need 3-5 years to get going.

Keep brainstorming – my storm is starting to lose its thunder now.

[near horse]

I appreciate some of the responses but perhaps I wasn’t clear in conveying my thought. While I am interested in some of the other forms of alternative or home made E, I too have recognized that there is no free lunch (or even free snack). As Brett said, solar and wind are pretty pricey to get setup; methane needs to have a minimum temp to digest the slurry (could work w/ a greenhouse setup though?). Rape/canola for biodiesel at least yields oilseed cake or pellet for feed (stick w/ canola since rape can cause digestive problems).

I’m just looking for a way to take something that we (many of us) have or “own” – our horses – and use that asset to help us reduce our reliance on “bought” energy. I understand that increasing the work load on the horses will require more E input from my farm in the form of feed but I’d rather put it into my horses than into ExxonMobil’s record profits again. on top of that, is there a way that, in the process of doing some work (not maxxed out plowing but something a bit lighter – harrowing – or just driving) we can also recoup some of the kinetic energy of motion and store it (like in a battery). So, with my limited imagination, all I can envision is a forecart w/ some type of ground driven flywheel that runs a sort of generator to charge up an onboard battery. The battery(s) could be used for whatever but I was thinking of using them to run an electric car.

Where’s Rube Goldberg when you need him?:D

[near horse]

If I remember right, E conversions are only about 10% efficient (90% lost at eachconversion). But that’s not really where I was going with the idea. Realistically, we are going to be stuck w/ the infrastructure, or some modification of it, created over the last 100 years. And, while many of us can be more self-sufficient in meeting our needs (grow food, provide for heating and shelter) the distances we live from places we need to travel to can’t be altered (short of moving). So how can we utilize something we have on our farm(s) to also address the issue of transportation?

Certainly using animals for direct transportation would be the most efficient but distance and time become limiting (as well as others on the roadway – see Bob’s Accident). Also, while taking grass, pelleting it and burning it to power a vehicle, generator or whatever might be more efficient E-wise, I(we) still have horses to feed in addition to our grass-pelleting process. Also, the horses are, theoretically, available to work. So can we somehow link our horsepower into the existing infrastructure?

I really want to see if there is a way to generate and store electricity while working my horses. I’d rather not have them just walk in circles all day. That’s why the Amish ground drive baler came to mind. If they can use a “bull wheel” to drive the baling mechanics, can we use a similar drive system on a forecart to charge a battery AND harrow or pull a spreader or something. Maybe “pie in the sky” but trying to think outside the box.

Tim Harrigan – you’re an ag -engineer aren’t you? Is something like this workable?

[near horse]

I worked for some years as a support cientist in both beef cattle nutrition and meat science. It has been pretty well documented that THE #1 issue w/ food safety is improper handling and preparation by the consumer. Unfortunately, the govt. can’t regulate how citizens handle food so go after the producers.

I don’t know if it’s still being considered but there was a movement to feed large doses of Vitamin E just before slaughter (antioxidant should increase shelf life….). The result was meat that stayed red longer (looked good) but had oxidized lipids and bacterial loads similar to the no Vit E group. Bottom line – it takes away the one thing the consumer had to determine whether the meat was “fresh” (color). I know they put the packaged and sell by dates on but those were going to be extended if Vit E was used.

Sorry about the diversion but it just came to mind.

Originally, I had a problem making a comment on the NAIS proposal – it wouldn’t open up. Maybe I am more computer challenged than you Bio Woodsman.:o You can read other comments and see who some of the supporters are (some of the groups stand to benefit by making themselves more important). In fact, the Animal Science Department at our nearby land grant school has graduate student(s) working on “how to get producers to accept NAIS”. They have some ideas about getting carcass data back to the producer since presumably they’ll know which carcasses came from which producers all the way back down the line.

[near horse]

I too find the whole NAIS thing a disaster for farming, particularly small farmers. If you’ve ever visited the inside of a large slaughter plant then you’d realize how ridiculous this is. As part of a research program I had to follow 60 carcasses through slaughter and get final grades on them. At IBP, they kill 2040 head per 8 hr shift. Highly efficient, I’ll admit but come on – we’re going to track a tainted hamburger back to the plant, to a carcass, to a feedlot, to a grower, to the farm that produced the original calf. There would be enough jobs in that one system to solve the unemployment problem right away – 😀

Unfortunately, take a look at the groups that are backing this legislation (Biological Woodsman had a link to congress on this issue I think). One letter from something like the Assoc of health professionals (not the real name) carries a lot of weight. Bombard your congressmen and senators w/ your comments.

[near horse]

Sorry if I stirred the pot but I am easily drawn into arguments. Something I guess I’ll be working on.

[near horse]

Welcome Robert.

I too am interested in sustainability both from a farming perspective and more generally just living in a more “sustainable” (probably not the right word but …) fashion.

I noticed your web link climatarians.org. and took a peek. Can you elaborate about what the site is about? It seems to really cover a lot of topics.

Again, welcome.

Geoff

[near horse]

Thanks for pointing that out Robert.

Also, it is pretty evident to me how much we (I) need community. Look at this site. We (I) come here for community. In my case, the community of draft farmers that doesn’t exist where I live.

As many have said before, through interaction you can learn, change your ideas and opinions or at least more clearly define the things you believe and do. It’s difficult to acheive this in a vacuum.

OldKat –
The decay of rural towns is happening everywhere. Here in our area, the large wheat farms have forced most small towns to become bedroom communities w/ people commuting to the closest nearby “city” for employment. Folks then do their other business and shopping at the WalMart in the “city” and the town is a shell of what it used to be. The one thing they will fight tooth and nail for is keeping the school. That seems to be the last thing that defines a community. Hopefully, things can change.

[near horse]

On more thought about where tractor farming took agriculture. I think it started the breakdown of “community” in farming. Sure, there was still the elevator, feed store, …. but coming together as a community to help each other seemed to disappear when one guy could farm and harvest what used to take many. The local threshing crews that moved from one place to the next – all local people – just weren’t necessary.

[near horse]

My experiences w/ USDA have been mixed. While they do seem to recognize the changes many of us would like to see (the have programs like ATTRA Appropriate Technology Transfer for Rural Areas – I think) the real money still goes to big Ag. Also, there I have been inundated with farm stats surveys over the last few years. “how much ground in winter wheat? how many pigs? Any grain storage?” Not sure why it suddenly became so important.

Of course that lead to formulated NPK rather that natural alternatives, legumes etc

First, I’m not challenging this at all but it is a perfect place to plug the book I’m reading (and anyone who farms and deals w/ fertilization should read this) “The Alchemy of Air”. Some historical descriptions of how N fertilizer was mined out of Peru and hauled to Europe in the 19th century. Also, bird guano was dug out and hauled from the shores of Peru all the way back to Europe. There were even some “guano wars” over the stuff. Then, as those sources were played out, a German chemist worked out how to take N out of the air and form nitrate and ammonia – the chemical fertilizer of today.

I know I have mentioned this before AND I GET NO ROYALTIES 😡 but it really does change ones perspective on the historical side of agriculture as well as making you think about “carrying capacity” of the planet. Check it out.

[near horse]

I am finished.

[near horse]

WOW! I just noticed this. Yup, get over that Constitution and Bill of Rights stuff. The Progressives are here to save us all. What hogwash! That 200 year old document and it’s outmoded ideas are all that makes it possible for you to voice your opinion!!! OPEN YOUR EYES!

Here’s my best attempt a civil response(and my tongue is bleeding from biting it :D).
1) nobody said “The Progressives” were going to do anything or save anybody.
2) nobody said to get over the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Get over the “that’s what the founding fathers said in the Constitution” stuff

That means literal interpretation of a 200 yr old document.
3) nobody said all the ideas were outmoded.

Government isn’t the answer, it’s the problem

Wasn’t that from the B-movie where Ronald Reagan played the role of a doddering president?

It’s your money that’s being spent without your say so.

You/we did say so. We have a representative form of govt and we elected people to represent us – so we did choose.

There are plenty of citizens that think the billions spent in Iraq was w/o their say so as well. Or the border wall. That’s just how it works when you’re part of a society.

I have NO use for the liberal Democrat/Progressive/Socialist movement. My biggest complaint is taxes followed by the unending number of things our Gov’t tells me I CAN’t do. I can’t do this, I can’t do that.

Taxes!? Uner the current plan you’re getting a tax break from them so what’s the complaint? I don’t know how many folks on this site are clearing more than $250,000 but I venture to say it’s not many. That segment of the population has been making out like bandits for too long and should start paying their fair share. And they will only go from a 35% to 39% tax rate. Back in the good old days that you harken back to

I wish our country would return (in a sense) to traditional small farms and locally produced foodstuffs. I wish the American family could still make it with Dad working and Mom taking care of the house and kids.

these same people were taxed at 50% and even up to 90%. See any relationship?

And what exactly is the govt keeping you, personally, from doing through its legislation?
Buying an AK47 or something?

I thought that we were supposed to be so grateful to the founding fathers because we can do just about anything thanks to the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

The bottom line is there will always be things in “governing” or “managing” people that some those being governed won’t agree like or agree with. That’s part of living in a society.

[near horse]

I think it Lynn Miller may have said this but I definitely agree – essentially “if picking one breed, size or color over another increases the amount of time you’ll spend working with or being with your animals, then great. Do it.”

[near horse]

And Carl – do keep your horses shod year ’round? Even in dry season (I know dry is a relative term in the NE).

[near horse]

Maybe I’m the only one that is still working through this issue but I still can’t tell when my team needs a break. I like the “ears” thing but some I’ve talked to have mentioned watching the horses barrel or breathing. I can’t tell if they’re breathing hard unless I stop to check. Is that a bad habit? I’m sure much of this comes from experience but any other pointers on what to look for so us rookies can feel more comfortable in what we are asking of our teams?

Some have expressed that there are probably more horses that are not worked hard enough than worked too hard. I also don’t want my team to end up a couple of couch potatoes

[Author]

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