[Plowboy]

My 86 yr old mentor still raises and trains Haflingers but also buys a few in if he finds a bargain. He stops by my Dad’s farm quite often and once after he had bought a young team at a sale we asked how they were coming along. He is a slight wiry little man but tough as nails and strong for his age. He went on to say they may have never been in stalls before because one was uneasy and the other had smushed him against the partition. He said the second night he led her in the stall he had an iron hook in his hand. When she went to smush him he jabbed her in the side of her shoulder. ” Now she steps back a step and gets over as far as she can to let me out”, he said. Sometimes it takes a little force to keep[ from getting hurt. Similar method that George used with his horse quick and simple.

[Plowboy]

Great well thought out answer Erik. While I wouldn’t have put it so articulately I agree with you. The only way to really conserve the small farms is if it would be profitable to be one. If people are going to be paying dues or premiums or what have you to this organization where will the money go if it doesn’t work out? While the idea is a noble one making it work may be difficult.

[Plowboy]

I have two pair of deerhide insulated gloves I bought at our local harness shop. I don’t recall the name brand though I think my Dad has a new pair with the tags still on so I’ll look. Two weeks ago yesterday I spent driving a 4-up of horses for 6 hours at 15 degrees hauling Santa Claus delivering gifts in a poor township. My hands never got cold although they were dry but one team wasn’t ours so the first part of the trip there was quite a bit of pressure until we got the bugs out and by the time we got back to Santa’s house they drove like a well rounded show hitch. I do like the Kinco gloves for work though warm and cheap as well as durable!

[Plowboy]

Good luck with all that. Sounds like you’ve got high hopes !

[Plowboy]

Pioneer and White Horse are not the same but the standard Radex bottom is interchangeable with the same bolt pattern. If you have a nearby Pioneer dealer that knows plows he should be able to fix you up.
Bachelor we do alot of plowing and it’s not always perfect weather but the picture you paint sounds like punishment!Sounds like you’ve got some tough ground wherever you live. If it’s that miserable give your land back to the Indians and move into some good river bottom land. Just kidding ! SWounds like your horses must be rock hard and well behaved with that kind of steady work!

[Plowboy]

I am not a naysayer at all as I have great respect for those little horses. My 86 yr old mentor is still training some Haflinger grades that he has raised. When we used to get together for log skids his stallion and a spotted mare would put some big teams to shame. I was just pointing out that 14in is alot of plow for Haflingers no matter what the soil. Depth of plowing is also a draft factor. Switching to a 12in and turning the furrow wheel to take a smaller bite may work well until they are conditioned. The moldboards are the same as pioneer and available right in Ohio at the factory or at a regional dealer. White horse is in Gap PA and also are decent to deal with and would probably ship UPS.

[Plowboy]

$450 is just over a third of new cost and a great deal if it’s in good shape. The only problem I see is the amount of horsepower. You will need 3 or maybe 4 haflingers to do much ploing with it. We use three 16-1800# horses on a pioneer 14 in decent soil with no big stones. You can change the moldboard to a 12in for a reasonable price. Good Luck

[Plowboy]

To me starting a pair without blinders is no different than changing a hame strap, adjusting a back strap, or making the hames fit the collar. It’s all a hardware change so to speak. The old timers I grew up with always told me you need a bag of tricks if your going to train horses. If I had a horse that I thought I c ould train to work faster or retrain quicker by using a non invasive method I would use it. I am bull headed and if a horse wants to do something on it’s own I make them do the opposite. On the other hand if I can save time training just by changing some bit of tack then I’m all for it. To not change something for the good is almost like making a horse wear an ill fitting harness because that’s the way it came out of the box. We all have to make adjustments to our equipment and animals over time. Not every horse will work in a straight bar bit without putting discomfort on the driver so we change bits because it is no fun having your arms pulled off. Not every horse is a placid beast but even the one’s that aren’t can be great horses with the right equipment so we reach into that bag of tricks so we can help the animal rise to it’s full potential. To magically believe you can whisper every horse into becoming Eeyore is insane because they all have different personalities and temperments.
I have an excellent working relationship with all my animals. They will give me 150% just for the asking but some have different bits, bridles, and one mare in the middle of a three horse hitch needs her crosslines taken all the way back because she can out walk and out plow any horse I’ve ever seen. When we got her she would make most people pee their pants but we got her righted around. She’s the most powerfull horse I’ve worked but with the right bit you can drive her with two fingers. My point is I couldn’t have got her working without changing her tack and being proactive and now she’s a great horse instead of a Canadian steak.

[Plowboy]

1/4 in grade 70 with choker hook is very handy to work with.

[Plowboy]

Carl, I don’t mean that blinders detract from any working relationship with any horse. I’m just saying that out of the 100 or more young horses we’ve trained these two that we trained open seemed like they almost were trained from the get go. They had been handled alot and nothing bothered them as we worked around them and hitched them. They were able to see us and were comfortable with everything that was asked of them. From our observations removing this “Hardware” {blinders} does have benefits as far as speeding up training. We are very busy with other indeavors and while we don’t want to rush lessons It saves us alot of time if they move along with there training demonstrating that they are ready. There has been no nonsense at all with these two and they have been handled the same as all that we have raised.
As far as retraining I’ll let you know when the snow gets deeper and we give old Buddy a try at seeing whats going on. I’m not saying that this is all the rage or it’s for every horse but to dismiss it as flawed logic is very narrow minded in my opinion. Until you try it and see for yourself if you experience any difference in your next team it seems that it shouldn’t be dismissed so quickly by someone that works with animals every day. Not trying to keep scratching at this I just can’t figure out why you take such a negative position against something you haven’t tried yet. We never would have tried it but by pure accident and everything goes so smooth like they were partially trained before we slid the harness on the first time. I guess I try to take a different approach and soak up all I can using what I want and cataloging the rest in my memory for future reference unless I dismiss it as far fetched or BS.

[Plowboy]

I’m not saying that in Johns case blinders or no blinders would have made a difference. In general though you may be surprised what they will do for you and what they can see come and go without being startled. I wouldn’t have believed the difference if I hadn’t seen it myself. I could have trained these easy going colts without a problem with blinders and had a real good young team but with these two being open it seems way faster and easier. I would have to disagree and say the hardware does make a difference. To really see the benefits you would have to start with youngsters. A well broke team would probably not make much difference unless their new vision scared the hell out of them or may make backing easier. We are going to continue to try it on any new horses in the future to keep the experiment going. Horses have great periferal visionand letting them use it positively seems to work well. So Again I would have to say there may be more to the “Hardware” thing than you realize. If it makes training faster and easier and helps prevent shying and spooking it’s worth a hardware change. We did rides at a downtown tree lighting ceremony last week and Dixie saw a lot of dogs screaming kids and worst of all bicycles whizzing by. Without having to turn her head she watched all of it come and go without as much as a flinch!

[Plowboy]

Carl, While I agree with some of your logic as far as changing things to make the teamster feel better and working through problems well blinders seem to be a different story. I too thought it was a fad or some passing whim when I first heard of working horses without.
Four years ago we were blessed with a little black filly out of a stout grey mare. Her mother and grandmother both had small heads and hers was no different maybe smaller. When we wanted to start playing with her in harness at 14 months or so the little saddlehorse size harness we use to mess around with youngsters fit fine but no bridle we had came close to fitting. Then we remembered the open bridle I bought at an auction because it was cheap and in good shape. It took up enough and we were in business. Since day one this filly has had no shy or spook in her that most colts have a little of. Maybe by broadening the focus they don’t focus on what comes into their limited focus and startles them with blinders on. Since then we have started her younger team mate the same way with no shy or spook. I once put blinders on the filly when fitting a good Stitch and Hitch harness I got from a friend for $150. I lead her out to show my dad how it fit and the whole time she rolled her eyes and looked all around turning her head with her limited vision. So far this is the quickest learning best standing and none shying team we have ever worked with. We not only have worked our own teams but many for our friends so we have a hundred or more horses under our belts to draw experience from.
While the jury is still out and we are in experimental stages I am not going to hack the blinders off the other 12 bridles but when we start another team of our own we will try it again based on our experience with Dixie and Dan. We also have our token Belgian that sometimes jumps when something comes from behind, while nothing serious it is annoying so he will probably take a trip on the breaking sled this winter with an open bridle just to see if it makes a difference. He’ll be 14 in the spring and he’s been great except for getting startled once in a while. Being aware of their surroundings and themselves with natural vision seems to make them calmer from the get go. I don’t believe every horse would benefit from open bridles but alot of them probably could. My dads father claimed a horse would back up better in the woods if he could see where he was headed with an open bridle. He logged a lot with horses in the 50’s so I guess it’s not a new thing just wasn’t real popular.

[Plowboy]

KM?? If that is you then I’m glad your here. How is your new team coming along?

[Plowboy]

Robert, One of my old timer friends showed up at one of our wagon rides without horses and got conned into driving a 4up of someone elses mules. Half way through the ride he was right behind our wagon, my dad turned around and asked, “How you makin out Charlie”? He replied,” just like drivin a hitch of G:: Damn Jack Rabbits”. With a big smile on his face.

[Plowboy]

Bumpus, What possible positive contribution do you have to this forum? All I see is negative comments reflecting your pissy demeanor. If you were unsuccessful at some point with draft animals you shouldn’t take out that frustration on those of us who are successful and enjoy it. I have a couple teams and a third almost there that most likely wouldn’t move unless they were physically harmed in some way. Stampede is a strong word and have never seen one in all my years around livestock. Again apparently you haven’t spent enough time trying to understand the animal and it’s personalities. I do know because it is reflected in your response you are not a horseman by the very sense of the word if you don’t understand what I am talking about.

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