[Robert MoonShadow]

Interesting & important topic. I’m very curious as to how you would work things if you do keep the lines in hand… hooking a log or loading/unloading something, hitching them to the wagon, etc.? I’m not coordinated enough to see think I’d be able to hold the lines while doing any of this. I’m not disagreeing with the idea, just wondering how it’s done.

[Robert MoonShadow]

Geoff ~ There’s one sure way to get rid of coyotes in central/northern Idaho: wait ’til the wolves get there! We had a bluetongue outbreak here that killed off an estimimated 60,000 whitetail deer (the muledeer and elk weren’t nearly as affected) about 6 years ago that led to an exposion of coyotes the following 3 years. Numbers were steady when I got here 2 summers ago… they just did their aerial count of wolves – 27 in 3 packs hereabout… nearest one only 2 miles away on the other side of the Salmon – and no coyotes there, when I could hear them all night 2 summers ago. I think I’d sooner have the coyotes.

[Robert MoonShadow]

Thanks Jen ~ I was wondering there what you could be talking about: “aka landscape rake”… having been a professional landscaper for 17 years, not knowing such a titled tool would be embarassing! Actually, what I know as a landscape rake is those 4′ or 6′ wide aluminum “garden rake” types… this here is known in the trail business as a “trail (or road) groomer”… there’s one next door to me & my boss designed one that uses the winch on his atv to finalize those trails we build where we can actually use motorized implements. It’s along the line of my idea that I mentioned about using a hay dump rake. I don’t think this york rake/groomer would have enough “lift & turn” to it, but a dump rake might – I don’t know, since I’ve never used one.
Again, thanks for your help.

[Robert MoonShadow]

Okaayyy, so you’re on a rant, then. But you’re laying it on a group of good people that you don’t know, nor want to know, since they’ve listened & responded in politeness. So then, my response to your opinion is:
@humble1 6299 wrote:

to bad I don’t care, some times the truth hurts and so be it.

[Robert MoonShadow]

Tevis: Any photos of these horse-drawn manue forks? I’m wondering if your “slip scoop” is the same or similar to what we have around here, known as a “fresno”?
Jen ~ What’s a “york rake” please?

[Robert MoonShadow]

Carl: For what my two cents are worth; I like it = it is tasteful, yet effective. The only thing I can see that might be diiferent is that the sponsor’s name (font size) is larger than the site’s… seems almost as if they are the primary focus of the site, and not DAP.
Just my thought.

[Robert MoonShadow]

Humble1, I can’t tell yet if you’re just being argumentative, naturally abrasive or just really that narrow-minded. I can’t watch youtube (I’m on dialup), but it’s the same as any other media source = it’s contents are put there by people, and thus, open to propraganda, one-sided-ness, and a whole slew of other assorted manipulations. And as almost anyone knows, if you go looking for something with enough focus & intent, you’ll likely find it… but you’re talking to horse-people here: they tend to know what happens to those that wear blinders – they only see what’s right in front of them. I wonder if you’ve reached your “judgement by youtube” or have actually been to any horsepulls? If you’ve been to them, how many? It takes more than one incident to form an accurate assessment of the whole, yet if you’ve been to many & saw only abuse, why did/do you go & thus contribute support to what you seem to hate?
PS – A tip on basic human interrelationship: if you want to ‘convert’ people to your point of view, it takes persuasion – hopefully logic-based, but emotional will work – but spewing negativity onto your audience has never been very effective for getting them to see things your way. If you missed that lesson in kindergarten, then may I suggest that you check out the book “How to Win Friends & Influence People”?

[Robert MoonShadow]

Jason; I kinda like that idea: I started thinking on it, and came up with perhaps using a forecart & backblade w/ team, to “snowplow” it off the edge to the level below (perhaps needing several passes, a layer at a time). Haven’t ironed out the details yet… anyone see any possible hangups? Anyone use one (like the one sold by Pioneer)? I’m wondering how deep of a layer it’ll dig down & move, since it’s not hydraulic, against the packed/settled half-done compost. Maybe it can be loosened up with an old hay dump-rake? (Must be about 40 of them laying around this area). I’m assuming it partly depends on the strength/size of the team, but am wondering how efficient it (the backblade) might be. Having seen nothing but pictures of them, I wonder about adapting a bale lifter? Isn’t there a horse-drawn ground-operated type? I’m planning on the pigs already {had actually forgotten about them for compost ’til you folks reminded me = thank you!}, but converting new land into produce production takes a lot of compost (especially the first couple of years), as you probably already know. Any other ideas, please?
Elke ~ I really enjoyed those links you posted: thanks!
Jason – I’m assuming what you described was done in windrows & not piles? Any idea about how deep/wide they were?

[Robert MoonShadow]

Carl ~ There you go! That’s an intelligent use of resource! (also known as sqeezing the last oink out of the pig). Now if that guy could just convince the slaughter house that he’s doing them a favor, he could charge them for it, too!
Jen ~ I don’t undertand it, myself, so I can’t answer that one. Seeing as how they do it all for the heifers, anyways – but the heifers are destined for the milk line, which, I presume, is much more profitable than the meat.
If I lived in the area, I’d pick those bull-calves up for a pittance (or free, since they’re gonna kill it anyways), buy a couple of “retired” milk cows from a big dairy when they go to cull them, and use them to supply the milk for the calves. Even without the colustrum, many will make it – and those that don’t = compost, which monetarily is worth more than the gas to go get them. (Hell, if they’re reasonably close, hitch up the team & wagon instead of driving).
“Just a 1-eyed way of looking at things”

[Robert MoonShadow]

Plowboy; I’ll send you some of my weather: I just cranked up the hated Ford Ferguson yesterday to do the spring discing & springtooth on the truck garden. My suffering comes in the form of triple-digit temps from June through September. 16 miles north of me on the Camas Prairie other side of the pass (the pass elevation is 4240 ft), they got 2″ of snow Friday. They’re only 600 ft. higher in elevation than us, on the prairie.
Idaho is just weird.

[Robert MoonShadow]

Geoff ~
Do you have contact onfo for this guy? I wonder if he does goats?….

[Robert MoonShadow]

Plowboy: As you said, it’s a temporary problem for you… I responded to others that indicated that it was a recurring one. I’m just saying that if it is recurring or long-term, then it should be dealt with in a better way. From your tone, you don’t seem to find it altogether satisfactory, yourself – am I right? So I was just putting forth an alternative way of seeing the issue. All I can ever do is to put forth my opinions that are based on my own life-experiences; thus, I cannot nor want to dictate to others. For instance; if I personally, having experienced this as you did, I would then antiscipate it happening again in the future, and would really try to find a more satisfactory (in my opinion) solution – and hope that it’s never neccesary. That’s all I was trying to point out, really… because to just shine it on seems to me to be neglectful of my duty as an animal husbandman to foresee & circumvent possible problems for all my animals – especially the ones that have little monetary value. Maybe it’s just my own personal weirdness, (quite possible, in fact), that I see the equation this way: the milk produced by the cow is actually intended for her calf. I take that milk. I owe some sort of responsibility to that calf. I feel the same way about the Earth: I take substenance from the Earth: I am morally bound to replace & replenish that. I realize that I don’t have the same attitude towards the Earth & animals as most modern farmers do… I’m proud of that, actually. Again, these are just my own viewpoints, and as such, have equal value as all others, which is to say, that they are no more right or wrong than others.

[Robert MoonShadow]

Carl ~ I agree that it’s a business design problem at base… designing a business (farming) where there is a monoculture of any sort locks oneself into that narrow profit source. But as you mentioned about the surplus zucchinni – composting it isn’t wasting it. But neglecting to compensate the following year is a failure of good farming (and business) sense. If you constantly have a surplus, then perhaps that needs to be evaluated. But I’m referring to the mindset involved with the dairymen (and certainly not all dairymen). They find the resources to nurture & feed the heifer calves, but solely because the bull calves don’t have sufficient market value they’re killed out of hand. It’s a mindset thing = you refer to composting by way of seeing its value as a nutrient source; they’re killing it not from that mindset, but out of the motivation of getting rid of an inconvienience. They know they’re going to have on average 50% of their calves as bulls –> they should plan to deal with that as part of their business, whether in setting aside the resources to develop them as a marketable meat source or steers meant for oxen or something. Planning to use the bull calves as a nutrient source alone isn’t wise planning: at most, 70% of the nutrients are captured in finished compost… a net loss of a minimum of 30%. I don’t have a perfect solution for dealing with the excess bull calves, but I suspect that your assessment is accurate: it’s got to do with the overall way they run the farm. I just think that there’s a world of difference between composting a dead animal & killing an unwanted animal out-of-hand, because someone chooses not to deal with an inconvienience that they created in the first place. As I said to start with; I’ll compost anything that dies here {or moves slow enough I think it’s dead >>> I swear that neighbor didn’t seem like he was only napping!} but I don’t kill the buckling goats just because they’re not potiential breeders – I developed a market for them amongst people who have small acreage of scrubbrush. I see no difference between the attitudes of that type of dairyman & the farmers of the 40s & 50s who, after buying a nice big tractor, found their faithful & enduring draft horses suddenly “inconvienient”.

[Robert MoonShadow]

Erika ~ If you decide you want the netting, just let me know – same goes for anyone else – although I don’t know how much it’ll cost to ship it; but it still seems like it’d be a money saver.

[Robert MoonShadow]

Dominiquer60 ~ I think you’re going a bit beyond my point… I’m not talking about a profit/loss margin here… if you’re going to kill it anyways, salvage the meat – even a newborn has meat on it – even if it’s only 10 lbs., its 10 lbs. of hamburger that’ll feed a hungry family of four for half a week. Put it this way: take that calf over to Ethiopia or Darfur & see if they can find any food value in it. We, as a society of plenty, tend to, as a whole, see & judge things by that standard. To a dairyman (or -woman) who has 20 – 50 – 200 – or more head of dairy cattle that they could eat on if they were hungry, they don’t see value in a little bull calf. And to them, in their situation, they’re right. I’ve been 3 days without food. I’ve also, as a landscaper, faced a 5-month seasonal layoff with 2 kids to feed. Different situations, different perspectives… different values. I’m just putting out an alternative solution to the problem. This isn’t just something I thought up while reading this post. {I’m not that smart a guy}. It’s the type of thinking that I learned, listening to my grandparents talk about how they raised their kids during the Depression (the other one, not the one we’re in now). I just don’t seem to buy into the throw-away mentallity of our culture. Bull calves – any farm animal -are not a throw-away type item. They’re just unwanted. So were draft horses, oxen, and donkeys. But there’s a difference between ‘valueless’ and ‘inconvienient’. The way I see it is this: if you choose to raise/breed animals, then you choose to accept the responsibility for all your animals – not just the ones that can make you a profit.

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