[Robert MoonShadow]

J-L; Yeah, we let them “mow” (rhymes with ‘chow’) while packing, although I don’t usually care, when I had my pack donkeys (but then, only had one I needed to lead, the others just tagged along on their own – and kept up). But these two mules are different: up on my heels to get that tasty morsel up ahead, then yanking my arm out of socket when a 1700 lb. draft/pack mule can’t bear passing up that one d*** weed. My boss (their owner) just accepts it (he’s long-legged & a fast walker) or will yank their draw-halter. I got so I don’t lead them anymore…
I should probably mention that we hike in; we’re not riding when we lead them. We also carry our own gear/bedrolls, so when she yanks my arm, I’ve got a 50-65# pack on, too. You can tell when I’m leading her… her name is “You little #%^^&$ no-good @##$@$%@# Ellie mule, quit that!!”
But packing’s different than pulling a load or implement, that’s why I asked about the check reins. I can see how that’d be a bad habit – to let them get their heads down like that then.
When do you introduce these? Right from the beginning of training or later, after they’ve gotten used to at least the basics? I’m just thinking of the checkreins getting tangled or something if this jack has problems during training. (During the ground-driving stage).
Donn ~ Are these the ‘overchecks’ in your photos? If so, what are the ‘sidechecks”? {Or vice-versa}

[Robert MoonShadow]

@Joel 5675 wrote:

The human being training the single horse needs to think like a horse a little more because the horse looks to an alpha figure for direction on how to act.

Good point: I’m going to keep this in mind as I train/teach my donkey.

I also agree with Carl; Manes’ latest posting was her most valuable in this thread (in my own opinion, of course). The idea of taking the animal for a spin & just stopping & making it stand sounds like a good lesson for it.
And although I agree with the overall statement that you can’t learn to drive by just reading this website, I do believe I can learn enough that it’ll surely lessen my chances of a major catastrophe (is there such a thing as a “minor” catastrophe?). You can’t learn how to drive a car by reading a book… but you sure as hell can learn the concepts – and the rules of the road. Especially since I don’t have any mentors around. I taught myself how to hunt by reading a book… or fifty… and then going out & doing it. I didn’t have a father or mentor then, neither. 35 years later, I’m starting to get the hang of it. It’s either take what I can get here & do it… or not do it at all.
That’s just not an option.

[Robert MoonShadow]

Rod: I understand & agree with you about perspectives, here. I grew up in Chicago… actually, they were small communities (Des Plaines/Mt Prospect) that had the city grow up around them. I actually lived on a small (14 acre) farm which is now under the runways of O’hara Airport. So, as the gangs & big-city culture came to be around me, I had the advantage of knowing “this ain’t normal”. I’m fortunate enough to be able to survive in either environment – city, small town, country, woods. I left the city just as soon as I could. But I still remember the rules of survival: danger comes from doorways, not the streetside; eyes focused forward – ears focused behind you; listen to your instincts. Its actually the same in the woods: pay attention or get hurt. Regardless of the location, confidence is key. Whether its based on a religious confidence that your god will protect you, or because you’ve spent so much time in the woods/city you know you can overcome the dangers. I’ve had a few “mishaps” in the woods, too. The ability to laugh at myself has seen me through a lot of tough times. And as for that ‘friendly’ ox: I’d have run, too! Or shot it. And then run. 😮 My philosophy in such a situation is simple: If it outweighs me by several hundred pounds & is running towards me, I’m not going to wait around to see what its intentions are. I’ll be embarrassed later. If I make it. 😀

[Robert MoonShadow]

Rod ~ That is awesome! You mentioned that it would hold ‘about a little more than a cubic yard’ –> about how much, weight-wise, would that be? I’m trying to get an idea on the total weight – if I could get the weight of the cart down to about 1/2 or 2/3 of what yours is, so I could figure on what my donkey could be expected to pull {once he’s conditioned for it, of course}. My main idea for use for it would be to spread compost… I don’t need it broadcast like a spreader would do it, just laid out in beds/rows – and I think this would work great for it. How wide is the “bed” of it, anyways?

[Robert MoonShadow]

Carl; I think you do just fine, in your ability to communicate your thoughts & experience on here. Many of the things you, Donn, and others speak of, seem to me, to have several common threads; one of which is to allow the animal to think, and not just be robotic. I like that. If I wanted something that could do the work and never have a thought for itself, I’d buy a tractor. I understand why you would choose not to spend time & effort on teaching people who just don’t take it seriously. I thought to tell you that I {and I’m quite sure others on here} do appreciate your efforts. Sometimes you can make an impact on someone’s thought processes without ever knowing it. It’s very important for me to “know the why of it”. I’m with Geoff on trying to figure out how to tell what’s pushing the animal too far & not far enough. I know it’s an individual thing – different for each animal – but I’m stumped on how to develop that knowledge on being able to tell the difference.

[Robert MoonShadow]

Rod, I take it the seat will either be forward so its out of the way, or perhaps flips forward/to the side, for access while loading? Also, does this have the ability to open only partway; so as to do a ‘running dump’ = spreading/dumping while moving? Which leads me to ask; can you open the door while on the seat? Or have to dismount, go around back & unlatch it? I just picture the usefulness of dumping “on the go”… spreading gravel for a driveway comes to mind. Thanks for sharing this with us.
becorson: Nice cart. And that ox looks pretty darn good, too. So, does the dog do the driving or is it just ‘supervising’?

[Robert MoonShadow]

Does anyone have a photo handy (or know of one in the photo gallery) that shows either of these two types? In the books I’ve got, there’s none in photos, just a drawing that doesn’t show much.

[Robert MoonShadow]

Manesandtails… show me why your way is 1) Vastly different than these others. 2) Why it is better. I’ve never really driven a horse, so I have no real preconceived ideas on what’s best or second best or just plain wrong. I’m here to learn. You’re not teaching, you’re bitching about others’ techniques. So, I’m asking you to teach… is your way better? From what little you’ve actually said on it, I don’t see much difference, really, in either the technique nor the end result. I pay attention to those who speak with wisdom, not just knowledge. I pay VERY close attention to Donn – I watched that slide show of Connie twice – so far. In that picture where they’re approaching the dog? Connie is making her own assessment of this dog (danger? okay?) while I can plainly see with only 1 eye, that she’s also very aware of what Donn’s reaction & assessment is. And he’s allowing her (see how the lines aren’t supertight?). I’d be interested in knowing what she did next, there; stop, keep going, get agitated…? Look at the other photos… he lets her sniff & assess & figure things out while she kept working.THAT’S what I want with my animals. I want my animals to be able to think for themselves, while keeping me in their minds. I don’t (yet) know how he does that, but I’m able to learn some more in just about each of his postings. Can you do this? I’m not being snide… I really want to know. If so, then speak out & show me a way. Because you haven’t even tried, as yet, and that means I miss an opportunity to learn from you. Thank you for reading my thoughts.

[Robert MoonShadow]

Nice, really nice… and the photography was great – showed a lot of good angles. Thank you for sharing this with us.

[Robert MoonShadow]

Carl… thank you. Your words help a lot, for me to understand – or at least to verbalize what I’ve felt to be right, without knowing why. Last week, one of the mules jumped the fence & was wandering up on the side of the mountain above. I just didn’t have the energy after climbing halfway to him, to play his usual “muley games” that his owner accepts. I just calmly went to the gate, opened it & said “C’mon, Bobby” & he just walked right in… and I can now understand why, a bit better… I hadn’t bribed him w/ the usual can of oats – I just expected it of him (hoped for, actually, but he didn’t know that 😉 ). I intended for him to do it, and I’ve always takened the time to create a ‘safe’ aura. Anyways, its good to have that reinforcement of my perceptions as being correct, by experts such as yourself.

[Robert MoonShadow]

Thanks, Rod. I like those White Horse forecarts, but I wrote them & they said they’re too big for a donkey or two. *sigh*

[Robert MoonShadow]

Well, Jean – It’s obvious that cow cake is a magical food… you feed cow cake to a cow, who then magically turns it into cow pie. :p
*geez, ya gotta teach them silly Easterners every darn thing* :rolleyes:

Oh, FYI: You carry cow cakes in your pocket; but cow pies you carry on your boots.

[Robert MoonShadow]

When it comes to PETA (and these breathatarians or whatever), the only comment I have is:
Some abortions should be mandatory.

[Robert MoonShadow]

You know, some day, I’m going to have real computer access instead of dial-up, and I’ll be able to watch all these videos everybody keeps referring to, and I’ll get to have fun just like the cool people. 😡

[Robert MoonShadow]

Thank you all; Carl – as usual, you keep focused on the topic of discussion (and are quite good at diplomacy). Jennifer – I always find myself looking forward to when you wade into a conversation – you speak/write clearly, yet with emotion, too. And the rest; you not only speak your opinion(s)… but WHY you have that mindset. That is the most important thing, for me anyways, as a neophyte – the “why”. Manes – I agree a lot with your mindset on the gentler “training” as opposed to the harsh “breaking” methods… but after reading & actually trying to hear these people, I think you’re all agreeing without realizing it. I haven’t read a single posting here (and I actually took the time to reread every one, to be sure) that advocates slapping a harness onto a raw horse & forcing it.. but I also see, as a man trying to create a farm from nothing, while trying to learn to do it w/ draft animals, that I can not take the length of time you do, Manes, to accomplish it. The one common denominator I’ve seen here is summed up for me in this word: visualization. Those of you that are experienced, “see” the entireity of it… the next step, and the next, and the end result… because you’ve done it so many times. As a rank beginner, I don’t – I can’t, as yet – see that far. So, from the back of the classroom, I’m hoping the teachers will quit argufying & refocus on the topic so I can learn more… hell, I’ll turn 50 in November – it’s already a race to see which comes first: plowing my first field behind some donkeys or senility! {No, they’re NOT the same thing!!} 😀
BTW: Whether you’re racing standardbreds, plowing w/ mules, logging w/ horses, drawing maple syrup w/ oxen or messing w/ these animals “as a hobby”… its all valid & its all important –> I’d just as soon leave the elitism to PETA.

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