[Scott G]

Lee,

I didn’t pick up on any criticism at all. The “constructive” criticism I was raised on ,and was given by (& readily taken from), the folks that guided me when I was young gave me a pretty thick hide…

Are you taking a break from roaming the Country and working some timber for awhile?

[Scott G]

Patrick,
Great to hear you are still at it after MOFGA LIF! Hope you can take that experience and continue to move forward with it…
-Scott

[Scott G]

Geoff,

I deduct all of my draft related expenses to the forestry biz as they are dedicated to that purpose. They are very legitimate deductions.

No issues from the IRS but I am a very small fish in a very large pond. Wouldn’t be worth their time…

[Scott G]

Ben,
Yes my bad, 3120. For some dead-brain reason I always seem to stumble and call that saw a 3152. Used one quit a bit 11-15 years ago when I was cutting 5-6′ cottonwoods. Nasty job…

Lee,
Modifying just about any chain will make it cut more aggressive. By dropping the rakers the chisel is grabbing a hold of a lot more wood and by using square ground chisel vs round ground you are making it that much more aggressive. I am sure the chain stretches more than normal due to how grabby (hungry) the chain is. Besides chain wear & tear, vibration is probably an issue although you won’t feel it as much as the “old beasts” with the AV features the new saws have. Don’t see as many loggers with white knuckle disease as much any more. But friend, it comes down to whatever works well for each of us…

Tristan,
You are correct re: the length of bar, at least in the Western region where I’m from. I run a 28″ bar with 3/8″ (.375) x .050 full comp, round ground chisel on my 372s’ which are my everyday saws. I’ll run .404 x .063 full skip round ground chisel on bigger wood/bars when needed, which isn’t very often. The main reason I run a 28″ bar isn’t the size of wood, it’s strictly ergonomic reasons. I am able to stand upright while bucking, limbing, slashing which is much better for my woods-thrashed back. It is more than worth the effort of packing an extra 1.5-2# for that benefit. We run our slash much lower than they do back east (from what I saw in Maine) so spend much more time slicing & dicing to get stuff within 18-24″ of the ground.

John (aka Skip ;)),
I can’t understand why it cuts faster for you unless its from burying those small bars in wood. Less cutters equal less cutting as long as the chain speed is where it should be. You dropping your rakers a bit lower? Again, its what works for our individual situations. Peace…

You guys mentioning the old Mac, gawd those things must have been popular. The old beast I still have tucked away under my cabin, haven’t pulled it out in almost 20 years. It was the first saw I ever cut with (Dad’s). Complete beyond-heavy beast that rocked for bucking but sucked for felling. Ahhh, my hands go numb, my lungs hurt, and my thumb aches (manual oiler) just from the memories alone. Not to mention, weren’t the points & condenser fun!

I have way too many old saws laying around. Probably 10-12 (lost count) in different corners of the barn. I only regularly use 3 of them (2 -372s & 020T). Have my old Stihl 038 Mag that is a powerhorse, just needs a minor re-build. That one built my barn. Have a 46 Mag that a former employee seized that I’m going to drop a new jug & piston in and dedicate to my Alaska mill. I should just round up, inventory, and get rid of the rest of them but I just don’t seem to get around to it (or don’t want to). Kinda’ like old skis, just can’t bear to part with them…

Keep doing what works for you…

Regards,
The Rocky Mountain, Husky totin’, Long-Bar, Full-Comp guy 😀

[Scott G]

@john plowden 24818 wrote:

i also use full skip chain that cuts faster and takes less time to file – though will dull sooner –
John

This is where I will have to take issue with my good friend, John.

Full-skip does not, on its own merits, cut faster than full-comp. It cuts slower in smaller wood and causes more vibration (bad for saw).

Full-skip was developed specifically for big wood & big bars. There are 1/3 less cutters on full-skip. When cutting large wood the kerf will fill with chips and has a tendency to bog down the saw, thus slowing down chain speed and hence slowing down the cut. Full-skip allows the chips to clear more readily (less cutters) and therefore increases efficiency/cut speed in big wood only. I will use skip but only in bigger wood (>36″) with longer bars (>30″).

On smaller wood, regardless of the length of bar, full-comp will outcut full-skip hands down everytime with much less vibration. Simply because there are more cutters with less spacing.

While I espouse to pretty much everything GOL teaches, if they are advocating short bars with full-skip chain as a more efficient combo they are wrong…

The wildland fire fighting community out west predominantly uses full-skip due to 1) the decreased time needed for sharpening, and 2) this NW timber fallers mentality that carries over into everthing they do and in reality is entirely inappropriate for all but a handfull of timber types. Myself, I’ll almost alway still use full-comp on the fireline.

Here is a chan link (pun?) for Madsen’s out in WA. IMO these folks are the most knowledgable “saw shop” in North America. Myself and the guys I work with do almost all of our own saw work including complete rebuilds. When/if we run into an issue we will contact the guys at Madsen’s. They have never failed me when I order something or have a question.

You may also want to consider buying your chain by the reel & spinning your own chain. It is very easy and you’ll save a lot of money.

http://www.madsens1.com/bnc_sequence.htm

Stihls/Huskys/Jonsereds are all good saws and I have run them all. They all have plusses & minuses. My favorite small saw that I use for climbing is a Stihl 020T, My favorite mid-range, everyday saws are the Husky 372s’, the large big timber saws Husky 3152 & Stihl 088 are both equal in my eyes and I have many hours behind both cutting large timber.

The most important point is that you get what you pay for. Tim’s analogy of woodworking tools is a good one. A fine set of chisels/gouges vs something you would pick up at Harbor Freight. And yes, even the “big boys” (S,H,& J) have backyard consumer models that would equate to just about the same thing. The “landowner” models are a bit better, but again when it comes to rools that I have to count on, almost everyday, I’ll always err on the side of the highest quality & durability I can get.

It’s not about size, its about quality. The price hurts but if you take care of and maintain that saw it could well last you the majority of your lifetime. The two 372’s that I still cut with professionally I’ve had for 13 years. They have cut hard that entire time & it amazes me on how much wood they have went through.

[Scott G]

@Does’ Leap 24726 wrote:

I had an air leak in my 372xp, so it has been in the shop.
George

George, was the leak in the boot? I haven’t heard of a 372 having that issue, only the 359s’

All of the new 400-series Huskys are homeowner-duty saws.

All of the new 500-series are pro saws.

Stick with a pro saw if you are cutting seriously on a regular basis.

I’ll hang on to my 372s until they pry them from my cold, dead fingers…

[Scott G]

@Does’ Leap 24575 wrote:

Scott, what do you average for annual snowfall where you are? I imagine considerably more than we get here.

George

George,

Where I live we can get 200″ a season in a good year. Down in the southern part of the State (San Juans – Wolf Creek Pass) where I grew up in the 70’s they can get in excess of 500″ a year. Needless to say our logging season in the high country is summer/fall. The lower elevation where I live (8000′) we can keep at it most of the year unless we get a huge dump. In 2003 we got 8′ on the level in March. 3-5′ dumps are pretty common.

As a matter of fact my partner and I are blown out of our cut today; 40 mph winds and bad drifting. Plow in only to get drifted in…

[Scott G]

Wet is good, you’ll be able to pack out some great trail. Might be worth giving it a day or two to let the wet pack settle the dry stuff you got prior. Will save you some work.

Out here when we get a good wet dump on top of a dry layer the mountains start moving and boneheads get buried…

[Scott G]

My reply was going to be instantaneous until I read Mitch’s….

Normally, floundering like you were, but with purpose, to make a few runs down your major skids will result in a good pack setting up overnight which will make skidding a dream the next day. It doesn’t change shoveling down to get to a decent stump height or the short twitch out to individual trees, but your main skids will be awesome.

When its cold sugar snow (“champaign powder” out here”) it won’t readily pack until the snow crystals bond together a bit. Lousy for logging, GREAT for some powder shots skiing 🙂

[Scott G]

Yeah Kevin I did, thx for the heads up. I e-mailed the guy but haven’t heard back from him. The arch looks like one of David Miller’s/Forest Mfg rigs. If it is, they sell for around $1,200 new. If the guy is willing to come down on his price substantially I might snag it.

That mechanical/hydraulic jib looks like a pretty neat piece of kit as well. Might be a little light-duty for the woods though…

Thanks again for the heads up!

We’re trying hard to make it up to -10F for the high temp today. Gets much warmer and I’m goin’ to have to let the fire in the stove dieout…

How warm is it in NE WY?;)

[Scott G]

Phil,
Here is one photo from the gallery that shows the cart set up with shafts.

http://www.draftanimalpower.com/photoplog/images/6/medium/1_Single_arch_uphill.jpg

[Scott G]

@Mark Cowdrey 24376 wrote:

I am wondering whether insurance rules are supervised on the state or federal level. This would bear on the issue of consistency.

Mark, workcomp is governed and administered by the individual States and I believe mandated by the Feds. Most liability and all auto policies are governed by the States. This is why consistency becomes such an issue…

[Scott G]

Attached are two more .pdf files that follow a project in the CA Latour forest in the early 80s’ where horses were used to perform a commercial thinning alongside a tractor unit.

This is one of only a couple of time/motion studies done on horse logging operations in North America that demonstrates their applicability in “main stream” forestry. We need more of these. As you folks move forward with your projects think about those that could include gathering some good numbers. I use to have grad students chasing my modified-mechanical operation through the woods with pencil & paper. These opportunities cost you nothing and you gain eye-opening information as well as providing quality info to the forestry community at large.

Awhile back, FERIC (Forest Engineering Research Institute of Canada) did a time/motion study comparing a horse/mechanical forwarder system to a cable skidder system. The horse/forwarder operation came out on top as measured by many parameters. Art Shannon was the logger I believe. I really need to track that paper down. When I/if I do, I’ll post it here.

Temps are dropping like a rock. Lows are predicted to be -25 to -35F, with windchills that make those temps look tropical. We won’t be in positive territory for some time. Good chance to spend some quality time next to the stove on the ‘puter…

[Scott G]

Very HD pulling-type singletree, often with a grab hook attached.

[Scott G]

We have had the ins agents tell us what would work and what would not for many years. The end result is that when you really drill down, find the specifics, and address those specifics directly & individually; you can usually make it happen legally.

If you find an ins agent you trust and have a good working relationship with, hang on to them.

Ins agents have two primary concerns:
1) to sell policies…
2) avoid getting sued/paying claims at all costs because it adversely affects their profitability.
…they are always going to take care of their own back forty first.

Thinking on it, especially after visiting the NE clan in Nov and taking Carl’s comments into consideration re: a true continuous cooperative effort and literal sharing of resources; an L.L.P. might be the best option if this is going to be a continuous effort. An L.L.P. would not exclude a partner from having their own seperate business although it may cause issues down the road if the partner & partnership are both aggressively seeking the same bid. Possible huge conflict of interest, so pick your partners (friends) wisely. Taking the L.L.P. and filing additionally as a sub-chapter S corp may be a wise move as well for tax purposes. My prior mechanical show was an L.L.C. sub-chapter S corp. It doesn’t cost much to file as these entities. I sent $75 a year to the Secretary of State of Colorado and I was done. The paperwork ahead of the game is the chore, but worth it. You folks have some work ahead of you…

As a side note, hopefully without de-railing the thread…

As far as Tyler’s and others comments, I agree…to a point. The level of beauracracy and possible infringements on personal liberty are beyond pushing the limits currently. That being said, there are some very legitimate reasons we are where we are right now. I can think of two that are foremost: 1) our society has become litigious beyond reason, the average member of our society refuses to take any personal responsibility, it is aalways someone elses fault and therefore, they must pay (above and beyond actual damages). True accidents are not acknowledged. And, 2) History does not bode well for the average guy that was working for a large timber (or other) company back in the day. Human labor was cheap, other resources were not (sound familiar for the other side of the world currently?) When the small D-2 sized, 30hp crawlers started taking over the ground skidding operations from horses in the early part of the last century there were many horrific accidents. Crawlers were expensive, men were cheap. Those machines (until very recently actually) did not have ROPS or FOPS and flopped on a routine basis. Many men were maimed for life/killed in the push to move large volumes of wood to feed our rapidly growing nation’s appetite for resources and generate enormous profits. Sometimes they would wipe the blood off the crawler, sometimes not, after they flipped it back over and put another round of cheap, expendable, human labor in the seat. A lot of widows and orphans were produced in that era. A bit raw, but a whole lot of reality when a few take advantage strictly for monetary gain at any cost. That my friends is why we have work comp laws now. I do believe we have went overboard, but those laws are more than justifiable.

As others, I should have been in the woods three hours ago. I’m off to try to salvage a productive day behind the saw…

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