[Scott G]

@near horse 20096 wrote:

Hi Scott,

I started another thread because I didn’t want to hijack the great thread RE: Carl’s project but I still wanted to ask something’s about beetles and rust etc.

I agree. Carl, can you move those segments of the thread over here?

@near horse 20096 wrote:

The radio show I was listening to RE: WBP demise was called On Point (I’m sure it’s available online) and the moderator was focusing on the climate change/global warming aspect – is this a tangible result …

There is no doubt in my mind. I prefer to refer to it as climate change. I have my opinions, but it is happening for whatever reason be it natural or man-made.

@near horse 20096 wrote:

Anyway, they did interview a scientist with 30-40 yrs working with the bark beetle (whatever the species is) and his big concern was that the beetle was now able to infest the WBP, a tree that had no history of having ever dealt with this beetle – primarily due to elevation (resulting in cool enough summer temps that the beetle couldn’t survive there). The double whammy for the WBP is that it’s primary method of dispersal is via a bird, the Clark’s Nutcracker, that caches seed all over the place and some of it germinates ….. With the demise of the mature WBP stands, the bird will switch to another easier food resource thus limiting any new trees coming into the population.

Density, diversity, & climate. Due to fire exclusion and management/mis-management of the past century we have phenomenally dense stands across all forest cover types that the sites can’t sustainably support. Also. the pheromone signals of bark beetles are much more consistent in dense stands vs open stands resulting in more hit trees.

We have way too many pure stands of timber out there. Mixing it up with different tree species and various age classes are the ultimate goals. The only green lodgepole that is being left is from the patch & clearcuts/fires of 20-30 years ago.

Clark’s nutcracker is the most important repro vector for all of our high elevation white pines. Dependent animal species will always favor white pine seeds due to their size and fat content. Clark’s might switch to another food source by necessity but their existence is so tied to white pines that I would expect their population to plummet.

@near horse 20096 wrote:

I know some folks are skeptical about the climate change argument but at the least this demonstrates how tight the relationships between organisms and their environment can be.

The take home messages are 1) we are seeing epidemic populations of all bark beetle species across the board, not just MPB. 2) MPB is “blowing out of the water” all that we thought we knew about the species including multiple annual life cycles (normally one), extended flight times, going into elevations we didn’t think possible, and aggregating up to a half-mile above the canopy and getting dispersed many, many miles downwind by winds aloft. 3) exotic invasive species are going to continue to contribute to the demise of our forests and associated dependent ecosystems. and 4) climatic changes are exacerbating all of the above situations.

In short, it sucks…

[Scott G]

When I’m in post/pole (norm) I will usually skid 2/3 rails(poles) per choke. Most of this pole/rail material is what we refer to as “pecker poles” 3-4″d and it just doesn’t work otherwise. Post specs for the mill are 8’3″. skidding out short lengths like that has a high potential of catching, flipping, and cleaning your clock. I’ll usually try to skid those out in 16-24s and ultimately 2-3 stems/chokers on the grab hook.

BTW, all the markets, including post/pole & firewood (usually the “reliables”) have completely crashed. 3 million acres of bug kill coupled with a lousy economy have made the situation beyond ugly. We (region) literally have billions of board feet decked roadside in the northern part of the State with no where to go.

With the market flooded, we are seeing prices paid for material that are the same as they were three decades ago.

Everything is service right now and even that has taken a huge hit due to the economy. I have enough work in front of me (service) but most folks are not that fortunate and are folding and/or defaulting.

In short, it sucks…

[Scott G]

@Carl Russell 20131 wrote:

To be successful with horses mixed with machinery, you can’t work on the time line of the machine, which is why I see a lot of horse loggers end up logging with skidder or tractor.
Carl

The reason a lot of horseloggers end up running a skidder is that they were going broke and/or could not support their family, plain & simple. Been there.

The “blinded” lure of machines, however, often masks the true financial cost of the operation. In other words, it takes an exponential increase in production to pay for production. Once you get there you realize that to make the final numbers black you need to incorporate economy of scale. That equals more machinery which in turn requires more fuel for the fire so to speak. Again, been there. My personal path was horse > skidsteer > skidder > feller buncher/525 CAT grapple skidder/Morbark whole tree chipper & 5 full-time employees > almost final personal destruction > horse.

This is why I have almost been evangelistic about penciling out the numbers. Not only for the bottom line but from the harvesting system perspective. You can’t know where you’re at or where you’re going unless you know (in your realistic mind at least) what you are doing, what your costs are, and what your realistic production is going to be.

Having spent a lot of time studying forest engineering and operations as well as implementation, I’ve got a pretty good handle on this.

My take, if we want to move forward into the realm of current and future forestry within the context that almost all of us espouse to, we need to think in 21st century terms. Ours is a system that excels at some operations and is piss-poor for others (I’ll catch heat for that one), and yes I refer to ours as a harvesting system, as well as the phrase “base machine”

The reason for those terms is so that the rest of the forestry community, as well as ours, has the ability to compare side by side the different methods of extraction, objectively measure the costs both economic & environmental, and choose the best system for the job at hand.

We all know (hopefully) that we do not treat our draft animals as machines. But within the context of harvesting, they are what the entire rest of the operation is based upon. Keep that in mind as that is extremely important. One of the most common problems that plague a forestry operation are bottlenecks, whether that is from one machine not being able to keep up with the other (i.e. manual harvesting feeding forwarder/grapple skidder) or the other machine being overwhelmed beyond its capability (i.e. two grapple skidders feeding one small chipper). These bottlenecks make the operation completely cost ineffective and usually cause the job to fail or at the very least result in the logger having to pay for work, bad situation.

So, let’s enter the horse. Horses excel at individual tree selection prescriptions where material is skidded short turns and bunched trail/roadside. When that material has to then be forwarded any significant distance to the landing, the numbers go south very quickly if you are skidding that distance with just a hitch’s worth of a couple of chokers.

Enter forwarding, ranging from a simple scoot/wagon to a 6/8 wheel mechanical forwarder. The horse is allowed to continue doing what it excels at, short skids to pre-bunch trailside, and the “forwarder” is doing its ultimate job, hauling large loads fairly long distances to the landing (ideally directly loading truck/trailer). This is what is known as a mixed-harvesting system taking a bit from two distinctly different systems to custom tailor an approach to a job that makes sense, as measured from all aspects.

That said…

The potential for bottlenecks is great for a horse/forwarder combo if implemented incorrectly. There is no way that one horselogger and his team(s) can make a fully mechanical forwarder work (as measured by cost), no matter how “tired the iron is”, if he is pulling the show off by himself in an average timber type. Tired iron still requires maintenance, fuel, and repairs that are not in balance with what an individual horselogger’s (who is doing his own felling) average production is going to be.

If, however, multiple loggers and teams are working the same project feeding one mecchanical forwarder the numbers start pencilling out a lot better until you get to a point where it is the most cost & operationally efficient system that could be utilized, coupled with the environmental and personal satisfaction/sanity aspects, you’ve got a winner.

Another option, because the material would be stockpiled, would be to prebunch an amount of material where you could hire a forwarder operator to come and and move all your wood at one time. You are only paying for fully loaded/fully productive time and your personal operational costs will be much, much lower than if you were to own your own mechanical forwarder. For example, one driveshaft (enter part) from CAT for $1,650 equals one horse purchase.

Other viable options, which are more labor intensive but lower/negligible capital are the scoots/trailers/horse-drawn forwarders. I eventually will purchase a horse-drawn forwarder with a loader. The numbers work out great, it is easy to not only cost out, but make money, with this equipment but also negates the need for a self-loader (cost savings) at the landing. Maintenance repairs are negligible other than grease and an occasional blown hose ($25). I can buy an entire replacement Honda engine for the thing for less than the price of the aforementioned CAT driveshaft. 4-6 cylinder engine for that Timber jack will run $12-15k.

In short folks, we borrow from the past and apply it with some additional tools in the tool box to address the needs/issues of forestry in the 21st century. It can be simple as twitching to a scoot or as complex as multiple teams/teamsters keeping a 2010 Timberjack busy. Myself, I prefer to work by myself and the most I would support personally would be a horse-drawn forwarder. It’s all about balance, by necessity…

[Scott G]

@goodcompanion 20066 wrote:

People overwinter in yurts in climates colder than new york state. They are small and easy to heat. A double layer of canvas holds in more heat than you’d think.

Yurts are great, I stayed in one for a few days (canvas on a platform) when it was getting down to -20F at night and only +10F during the day. I had the record for getting that puppy up to 98F with the wood stove. Cold was not an issue, we had to crack the door. With an airtight stove you can stoke it, shut it down, and keep one of them ~50F on the inside when you are gone. The double-wall with the dead air space in between makes it much warmer than a wall tent. I use to spend up to 8 months a year in a wall tent and did OK. When I was younger a lot of young families would live in a teepee until they got their cabin built. As far as visitors & relatives, if they are into it they will pitch in and help you build. If not and they either complain or won’t visit, you’ve already established a natural selection program.

My dad has lived in a 30′ camper on the back forty in the woods for 14 years now and is very comfortable.

When I first hauled my young wife up the hill to our cabin in progress my father-in-law came out to visit. He was ready to pack her suitcase and take her to town. After I got his rear end down into the trench to help where we were jack-hammering out for the water line in 2′ of very wet snow, he wouldn’t take her away. He felt too invested in the project at that point…

The only problem with a yurt, if you have small children, when you tell them to go sit in a corner it baffles them. 🙂

Move into something you can eat & sleep in and that can be heated with wood, get a portable mill, and start building. In a few years you’ll have a home on the piece of property that you really wanted.

[Scott G]

@near horse 20077 wrote:

Scott – I heard a story on the radio that the demise of whitebark pines was due to infestation with bark beetles – that never used to be able to survive at the elevation WBP’s grow (near 8000 ft, isn’t it?). Do they also get blister rust? Western white pine used to be the cash tree here in Idaho 100 yrs ago and the University maintains a whitepine seed lot(?) – to produce seed considered more resistant to the rust …

Geoff,

We are getting the double whammy, bark beetles (MPB) & WPBR. MPB is blowing everything out of the water that we thought we knew about the species, including going to higher elevations (here 10,000′ easy). We are in the midst of a large genetic conservation project to collect white pine cones, grow out the seed, and test the progeny for rust resistance. Like Carl mentioned, WPBR has an alternate host (like all rust fungi) and those are Ribes sp.. Rusts have five life (spore) stages, 3 of which reside on the alternate host (Ribes) and 2 on the white (5-needled) pine.

Our biggest threat that other regions have not had to deal with is that MPB is killing off most of (if not all) the seed trees and WPBR is taking out the small regen & sapling/pole sized stock. That is why I said we are truly in a dire situation of quit possibly losing an entire high elevation ecosystem type. The race is on for cone collection before the good seed trees get nuked by MPB. Unfortunately the limber pine cone crop sucks this year.

So, there’s your answer. I also do not want to hijack the thread. The current show Carl has going is way cool and exactly the type of combined system I have been on the soapbox about in the past.

If we want to start a different forest health thread that would be OK. Right now I’m consumed with getting my wife/daughters through the mayhem of the County fair.

[Scott G]

@near horse 20077 wrote:

Scott – I heard a story on the radio that the demise of whitebark pines was due to infestation with bark beetles – that never used to be able to survive at the elevation WBP’s grow (near 8000 ft, isn’t it?). Do they also get blister rust? Western white pine used to be the cash tree here in Idaho 100 yrs ago and the University maintains a whitepine seed lot(?) – to produce seed considered more resistant to the rust …

Geoff,

We are getting the double whammy, bark beetles (MPB) & WPBR. MPB is blowing everything out of the water that we thought we knew about the species, including going to higher elevations (here 10,000′ easy). We are in the midst of a large genetic conservation project to collect white pine cones, grow out the seed, and test the progeny for rust resistance. Like Carl mentioned, WPBR has an alternate host (like all rust fungi) and those are Ribes sp.. Rusts have five life (spore) stages, 3 of which reside on the alternate host (Ribes) and 2 on the white (5-needled) pine.

Our biggest threat that other regions have not had to deal with is that MPB is killing off most of (if not all) the seed trees and WPBR is taking out the small regen & sapling/pole sized stock. That is why I said we are truly in a dire situation of quit possibly losing an entire high elevation ecosystem type. The race is on for cone collection before the good seed trees get nuked by MPB. Unfortunately the limber pine cone crop sucks this year.

So, there’s your answer. I also do not want to hijack the thread. The current show Carl has going is way cool and exactly the type of combined system I have been on the soapbox about in the past.

If we want to start a different forest health thread that would be OK. Right now I’m consumed with getting my wife/daughters through the mayhem of the County fair.

[Scott G]

A friend of mine who is a forestry equipment dealer raises and shows them at great western.

He tells me they taste really good…

[Scott G]

@Carl Russell 20046 wrote:

We are harvesting trees with defects like forks, blister-rust, or marketable trees that are competing with others with good potential.

Carl

Carl, are you talking about white pine blister rust (Cronartium ribicola)? I thought you guys had that licked for the most part in the NE. It is kicking our butt out here in the whitebark, limber, and bristlecone pines. Quite possible we are going to lose an entire ecosystem type.

Nice show, looks like fun. Gotta like those horse/forwarder mixed harvesting systems! 😉

[Scott G]

@Ixy 19964 wrote:

Forgive a penniless peasant for being so direct but – do you get paid for this?

As I understand it, Joe will compensate for submissions that are printed.

That said…

I firmly believe in doing things for the greater good with the only “reward” knowing that I am contributing to the culture.

If we hope to further develop our culture of draft power, maybe even just help it to survive, it is our responsibility to spread the word. That can be in the form of reaching out to local folks in our region, or in this modern day world, using the available technology to reach out further. Since you are participating in this forum I know you have access to a computer and know how to use it.

If we don’t provide the outreach & education who will? Our numbers are much too small to not participate, and with the tools of the internet, we are fortunate to be able to share experiences from all corners of the globe.

We all have bills to pay and are dead beat tired at the end of the day but, that is why we have lamps to carry on. It only takes a few minutes a night to jot down a paragraph or two. Folks much prefer to hear from us vs a third party journalist, that is what editors are for.

My take & two bits on the matter; I believe our culture & message are much too important to take a back seat approach. Relying on the “other guy” just doesn’t work for me.

Get involved, for the sake of our culture…

[Scott G]

Thats where the occasional use of the phrase “stumps up your butt” comes into play as it relates to the vocation of horse logging. 🙂

Welcome and way to go by hanging in there.

[Scott G]

What can you do with corn cobs??

Now that is a really loaded question.:eek:

I usually give very direct advice on what to do with a corn cob to someone I really don’t care for…

[Scott G]

@Carl Russell 18767 wrote:

That is way too much. Fickin’ Awesome.

Carl

My gut still hurts. I sent that vid far and wide among my fella mountain logga.

Might have to buy me a translation book for Mainer to Coloradoan though.

How you say, wicked awesome??

[Scott G]

If you bovine power folks start submitting decent manuscripts with photos, chances are that Joe would publish them. “Build it and they will come.”

No contributions = No content

[Scott G]

Its awesome when a long term operational plan/layout is actually a component of the management plan. Having well laid out trails with the entire stand taken into consideration vs random trails that have occured to cut specific area/product will be a huge bonus for your operation as well as the woodsmen of the future.

Be great if you could document some numbers on the horse/forwarder combo, Carl.

Best of luck

[Scott G]

I was cruising an aspen stand located at 8,500′ about a week ago. It was almost 80 degrees and 35% humidity. Thought I was going to die…;)

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